Is the BP/W really the best BCD for recreational divers?

[Lorenzoid]

It sounds like you may have shifted too much weight to your back. I'd try getting rid of weighted STA and using a weight belt with 4-6 pounds on it.

I was mistaken--there was no weighted STA. My GUE Primer instructor set up my rig, and we did exercises to test that it really was balanced. No, I think stability in the roll axis might just be an inherent problem with the BP/W. My instructor seemed to acknowledge that and said it will be necessary to make some corrections by finning. I thought that was odd, since everyone seems to think a BP/W is a more stable platform than a jacket. It felt stable in every other respect, but when it started to roll it would continue to roll me right over--to the point where I was turned turtle, and the tank became my keel--unless I corrected it immediately. Anyway, no need for you guys to help me with my issues here, as my anecdote wasn't a plea for help so much as to raise my hand to say count me as one of the (apparently few) people who did not have an immediately positive experience upon switching to a BP/W.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Ok so i am thinking about a wing as my first non rental rig because my size puts me on the outs of standard size

Curently i rent everything but always from the same place and there is not so much competition for my size now before i list sizes let it be known everyone gets one and only one fat joke agreed

4Xl farmer jhon 7mm wetsuit
3Xl bcd i belive its a Sherwood
40 pounds of lead on a al80 or 36 on steel 72

So what would i need to get for a bp&w

Does it have to be 50 pound lift to offset the lead

Simple easy to get into harness (no so flexible these days)

This is off topic of this thread but as no-one else has answered I hope I can assist.

I recorded my experiences of changing to a BP/W here http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...perience-changing-jacket-wing-hope-helps.html

For me at 6'3 and at the time I was diving a full 5/7mm 4mm hood, boots blah blah and weighing in at 200 lbs (90kg) and in my BC I was carrying 22lbs of lead (with a grand total of 28 dives) on a 12L steel tank

When I moved to the BP/W I moved from carrying 22lb on a weight belt to 9lbs and of course the 5lbs for the SS plate and STA.

Over the next 10 or so dives I'd reduced the weighting down to only a couple of lbs carried in trim pockets.

Part of my weighting problem was that I'd been out of the water for a period so was over weighted to get me below the surface - a combination of not getting the trapped air from my BC out fully, some air in my new wetsuit and not being relaxed on the surface - however all things being equal just the change to a wing in my case meant I lost 9lb of lead

My harness is documented in my original post - you can get comfort harnesses - I like others don't have my harness straps real tight (easy to get on and off) I like my crotch strap a bit shorter than some which pulls the rig into position. Whether some people think thats right or not I don't care, it dives well and no instructors at my club (and there are quite a few tech instructors with 1000's dives each) don't see an issue with it when I've asked questions....

Looking at your stats and your dive qty I suspect that you like me are over weighted and experience will bring that down, certainly a wing will take some off too..

 

[DivemasterDennis]

For the record, at my LDS, on of the busiest in the country as to certifications and retail ( at least this part of the country) we do no recommend the bp/wing. We do not put it down, but we carry traditional bcd's. have them as our training and rental gear, and go with what we know. We have bp/wing people around too. This is one of those "no right answer" issues. People should use equipment with which they are comfortable and familiar, and which meets their particular dive condition needs.
DivemasterDennis

 

[doctormike]

This is one of those "no right answer" issues.

Wrong. BP/W is best.

[video=youtube;n7-RetY7fGo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7-RetY7fGo[/video]

Best. Best. Best.

 

[Colliam7]

I'm really surprised this discussion has struck so many nerves, and is such a sensitive topic. . . . It's as if I've insulted someone's religion or something....

I am not sure it is a matter of 'nerves' being 'struck', or this being a sensitive topic, or a religion being 'insulted'. I think it is more a matter of some respondents disagreeing with some fundamentally illogical statements that you made - and with regard to which you asked for thoughts. You may not like the thoughts, but you did ask for them.

I started the thread merely to suggest that perhaps a BP/W may not be the right recommendation for all recreational divers,

And, a number of people, myself included, have stated agreement with that view - it 'may' not be right for 'all' 'recreational' divers. Had that been the only statement in your post, I doubt there would have been much disagreement. But, you went on to explain your reasoning for the statement, and that is what has generated reaction.

because of the potential problems they might encounter.

And, this is where opinions have diverged from yours. The primary issues I see raised in the responses concern what you have cited as 'problems'. A number of people, with a not insubstantial body of experience, have reasonably questioned whether the 'problems' are actually problems at all. So, let's look at what you said, and why you may have seen such disagreement.

A lot of time has to be spent on harness adjustments, shifting of D-rings, weight pockets, knife pouch, adjusting of crotch strap and so on, to account for different exposure protection.

Personally, I don't think this statement is true, based on my experience. It has nothing to do with nerves or religion, I am disagreeing with the general validity of your statement. But, it may have been YOUR experience, so for discussion, let's accept the need for adjustment as fact. What - for you - constitutes 'quite a bit of time'? I have adjusted a BP harness on more than a few occasions, to accommodate a change from a 3 mm wetsuit to a trilam drysuit. It takes, at most, 10 minutes. I don't consider that to be 'quite a bit of time'. Maybe you do. But, as I said several times in my initial reply, personal preference plays a role. If you feel the need to perpetually tweak your adjustment, based on some set of guidelines that you perceive to reflect 'optimal' fit, and spend 'quite a bit of time', fine. I have a modicum of experience using a BP/W for recreational diving, and a modicum of experience working with recreational divers who are setting up and using a BP/W, and I have not seen the same need for 'quite a bit of time'. As a result, I stated my thought, which is that your experience may not match others. That has nothing to do with religion or nerves.

You do need to have quite in-depth knowledge of how to set up your gear properly to have it fit well. How high the plate should be, how tight the shoulder straps should be, how to make sure the plate is aligned correctly, correct position of D-rings, how tight the waist strap should be, how tight the crotch strap should be.

Again, I personally disagree that you need 'quite in-depth knowledge'. There are a variety of suggestions for the initial set-up, and applying those does not require in-depth knowledge, just an ability to follow static diagrams or watch videos. After that, the knowledge needed is what is comfortable for you. How tight should the waist strap or the shoulders straps on a jacket be? That is up to the individual. For example, the waist strap should be tight enough to feel comfortable. What feels comfortable is up to the individual. The same is true with a BP/W - there is no difference.

With a jacket, none of this is necessary. It's a velcro waist band, waist strap, chest strap, and you're good to go.

OK, I won't even disagree. But, how tight do you cinch the waist strap? How tight do you make the velcro waist band? How tight do you cinch the shoulder straps on a jacket? (By the way, if you tighten one shoulder strap more than the other, that alter whether the jacket is aligned properly. Since many jacket BCDs, on many recreational divers are so sloppily fit to begin with, perhaps alignment is essentially a non-issue.) Does that require 'in-depth knowledge'? Or, is it a matter of fitting to individual comfort? How is that different from a BP/W?

Backplates also need to be sized correctly to the person's back. One-size-fit-all plates do not work for people with shorter or longer backs then average. Size affects the angle at which the shoulder straps and waist straps exit the BP, and where they position the waist strap on your body. The problem is that most plates out there only cater to a "standard" size. The only ones I know who offer different sizes is Halcyon and DSS.

So, are you saying that one size of a jacket BCD fits all, that every diver can use a MEDIUM jacket BCD, in any brand line, with any exposure suit? OK, I don't think you are. But, your point seems to be that, because some divers will benefit from a non 'standard' size BP, a backplate is less desirable than a jacket BCD - for which sizing is even more variable, and for which sizes even vary across brands. And, that is fundamentally illogical. If I can fit a far greater number of divers with a 'standard' BP, soft or hard, simply by adjusting the harness, than I can with a size MEDIUM Apeks Axiom, how is the need for a nonstandard BP in a few divers a disadvantage compared to a jacket? That has nothing to do with religion or nerves.

Gearing up is much more involved, especially if you use a crotch strap and a continuous piece of webbing. If you dive a lot, especially off a boat, it adds up. Gearing up and doffing gear is much harder with a properly sized, HOG harness. No quick release buckles. . . . Changing tanks is also more troublesome. Unlike jackets with only one camband positioned high up on the jacket, most BP/W systems have 2. If you have weights loaded into integrated pockets, it means pulling the heavy load off the tank.

Again, I simply disagree with the statements, moreover I really disagree with the implied consequences. I have never found that gearing up on a boat with a BP/W with a one piece harness and a crotch strap is in any way more involved that gearing up with a jacket BCD. Therefore, as noted the first time, your experience may not be that of others. Not only that, as I also pointed out you don't have to use a crotch strap, you don't have to use a one-piece harness, you don't have to use two cam bands, with a BP/W. Apparently, you have elected to do so. That is your choice, and good for you. But, to cite the presence of a crotch strap, or a one-piece harness, or two cam bands as a negative feature of a BP/W, and consequently a disadvantage compared to a jacket BCD, for the recreational diver, is simply incorrect.

In my opinion, your 'bottom line' conclusion is fundamentally illogical, that apparent conclusion being: 'Something that offers a number of options, which the individual user does not have to employ to begin with, is less desirable than something that offers none of those options.' Those are my thoughts, which you asked for. They have nothing to do with religion or nerves.

I will take it a step further. If there is 'religion' involved here, it seems just as likely that you have decided to religiously follow some arbitrary set of guidelines for BP/W set up and adjustment, and you are slavishly applying them to every change in exposure suit, and are frustrated that you cannot seem to get an instructor to help you with the adjustments. None of this bears any inherent relationship to advantages or disadvantages of a BP/W compared to a jacket BCD. Perhaps, your initial post should have asked, 'How critical is it that I follow a set of arbitrary guidelines for set up and adjustment of my BP/W, versus setting it up so it feels comfortable on me and works for me in the environment in which I choose to dive?'

 

[RJP]

For the record, at my LDS, on of the busiest in the country as to certifications and retail ( at least this part of the country) we do no recommend the bp/wing. We do not put it down, but we carry traditional bcd's. have them as our training and rental gear, and go with what we know. We have bp/wing people around too. This is one of those "no right answer" issues. People should use equipment with which they are comfortable and familiar, and which meets their particular dive condition needs.
DivemasterDennis

Whereas, at my LDS (one of the busiest in the country... and not just this part) we recommend BP/W, train in BP/W, and the majority of students that buy gear buy a BP/W.

Different strokes for different strokes, um, I mean folks. (See what I did there?)

 

[doctormike]

I also don't like the commonly held assumption that anything which requires some work to get right is automatically less desirable than something that just works fine right out of the box. Sure, that would be the case if the two options were otherwise equal. No one is suggesting that hand-forging your own manifold is better than just buying one.

Yes, it does take a bit of work to get a BP/W set up correctly. But it takes a bit of work to learn buoyancy and trim. It takes a bit of work to learn photo composition. It takes a bit of work to learn how to breathe underwater in the first place!

Reminds me of a similar thread a while ago where someone claimed that the great thing about a jacket BC is that you could buy it and be diving it within five minutes, since you didn't have to set it up.

 

[diverrex]

I really don't see how you can use the same adjustments on the harness without change on both a 3mm and 7mm wetsuit, and still expect it to fit optimally. We're bending the rules of physics now.

It's either going to be too tight in the 7mm, too loose in the 3mm, or both.

That's not at all true. You are acting like the BP/W has to be within exactly 1mm of optimal setup to function well and it doesn't. It may be slightly loose in a 3mm and slightly tight in a 7 mm but it still functions fine. Also I'm guessing I tighten the waist strap more while in the 3 mm. I say "guessing" simply because the whole thing works so well I really don't pay attention to the exact setup. For that matter I know sometime I have the shoulder set tighter or looser than other dives and it doesn't really matter.

When I switched from a Seaquest Balance BC to my Halycon Infinity BP/W I remember telling my LDS I liked the the BP/W better but didn't think it was a night and day difference. The Seaquest Balance is a good BC and I'd gladly dive in one again someday if needed. I agree with the comment that BP/W's are not needed for all recreational divers. But the points that you make about thier difficulty in adjustment just do not match my experiences.

 

[lv2dive]

I don't adjust my BP Harness going from diving a drysuit with a decently thick undergarment, to diving in the tropics (see my scubaboard avatar; on that trip I dove with a skin or a 3MM; with/without Xshorts depending on the dive). On the tropics dives with the skin, I cinched the waiststrap tight and the shoulder straps were very loose - you could probably fit TWO fists through each side, but if I am horizontal and have a tank on my back, the tank is not going anywhere . There was no issue whatsoever - bending of physics not required.

I really don't see how you can use the same adjustments on the harness without change on both a 3mm and 7mm wetsuit, and still expect it to fit optimally. We're bending the rules of physics now.

It's either going to be too tight in the 7mm, too loose in the 3mm, or both.

 

[RJP]

Reminds me of a similar thread a while ago where someone claimed that the great thing about a jacket BC is that you could buy it and be diving it within five minutes, since you didn't have to set it up.

I call BS! In order to "buy a BCD and be diving it in within five minutes" you would need to purchase the BCD on the back of the boat on the way to the dive site... or bend the time-space continuum!

Either way... I ain't buying it!

:d