Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...

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Online arguments are like running your mouth at a press conference. You don't have to answer to anyone. You can spout all of the BS anyone can stand, and few will call you on it. You might not even have to pay the piper.
Well, it is my opinion what I post and I'll stand by it... in real life I would just say it once though... online I sometimes think that people did get what I meant, either because I was not being clear or they weren't reading the way it was intended.

Also, I'm spending way too much time at the office these days.
 
Online arguments are like running your mouth at a press conference. You don't have to answer to anyone. You can spout all of the BS anyone can stand, and few will call you on it. You might not even have to pay the piper.

The internet phenomenon... a magic little comfort zone, where anyone can talk the talk, but never have to walk the walk.

Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion, the internet is a place where a 25-dive novice can lecture a 6000-dive pro... and probably receive support from other novices to boot.

What I've noticed is that this phenomenon doesn't happen in real life (at least in my experience)... and certainly not at the dive boat or cave site. Because, God forbid, the novice might actually find themselves in the water with the other person and they just 'might' not measure up to their bluster.

I really don't understand the attitudes of some people. But then again, I grew up in the last generation to not have the internet during our childhood. I am quite an opinionated person (understatement, I know..), but many would be surprised that I do a lot more lurking, learning and reading on the internet than I do speaking. You'll rarely see me comment in the cave or CCR forums... I have no authority or expertise to comment in those discussions and debates. I'd feel like a complete dick to be arguing on many topics, especially where others have significant experience.

Maybe there is a need for a sort of fundies/essentials for sidemount? A baseline.

I think that's a tendency for approaches that originate from cave (and lesser degree, tech). In my opinion, it's what we see happening with the likes of Bogerts,Martin, Dallas etc... and many others less publicized.

I was really fascinated to watch Steve Martin's videos last year. I'd never been introduced to his teaching... most of what I do, my approaches, were self-originated. But when I saw Steve's videos I saw a near identical solution. Some minor ideas I stole, some minor ideas I didn't think optimal.... but for 99% of it, we arrived at the same point.

I'd guess I am not the only one to see that.

I'm sure that's also true for the American/Floridian/Cold-Water system also... where you have a different cadre of major pioneers who essentially evolve near-identical approaches and solutions.

As Bruce Lee said; "absorb what is useful and disregard the rest". Eventually, you are left with a core strand... an approach. In most cases, divers of appropriate knowledge, experience and capability will result in the same solution.

Sidemount differs from 'DIR' as there are two fundamental schools of approach currently developing. This reflects, perhaps, a reality that sidemount does require a specific application depending on environmental factors. The two schools of approach cover the spectrum of need.. and I honestly don't know if either school will 'prevail' over the other, or eventually merge somehow. Somehow, I doubt it.

The 'secret' is that establishing consensus and formalizing of common approaches arises from extremely competent divers sharing, learning, evaluating and selecting.... not from online zealots and forum debates.

A lot of what you read is people justifying their purchase decision. If they spent money on it, it must be the greatest thing possible. They know relatively little about any other system, but they think it will be vastly inferior to the one they've chosen.

That may be correct. In contrast, the divers who are actually leading the developments get their gear for free, or are designing/manufacturing their own. There's little ego involved, and certainly no need for forum squabbling. If something is defended, it's probably because of commercial reasons, rather than offended egos. For the most part, those involved at the upper echelons have very clear motivation to know exactly what's good and bad in their, and others, systems..
 
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Sidemount differs from 'DIR' as there are two fundamental schools of approach currently developing. This reflects, perhaps, a reality that sidemount does require a specific application depending on environmental factors. The two schools of approach cover the spectrum of need.. and I honestly don't know if either school will 'prevail' over the other, or eventually merge somehow. Somehow, I doubt it.

What are those schools Devondiver? (I'm not a sidemount diver so I really don't know but interested).
 
What are those schools Devondiver? (I'm not a sidemount diver so I really don't know but interested).

The way I see it;

1) British/Mexico - Typically minimalist and lightweight, aluminum cylinders, bare harness, D-ring lower cylinder attachments on the rear waist-belt, continuous and loop bungees, triangle or diamond bladders (lift focused over the hips, less up the torso) Example rigs: Razor, XDeep, Z-Trim etc. Key names: Bogearts, Martin, Dallas et al

This is the evolution from guys who initially used hydration bladders (i.e.MSR) for buoyancy, with a basic harness for cylinder and weight attachment.

2) American/Florida - Robust 'big rigs', steel cylinders, in-built harness systems, butt plate with rails, old-school, independent and ring bungees, donut or horseshoe bladders. Example rigs: Armadillo, Nomad, SMS100, Halcyon, Hog etc Key names: Hires, Sorensen, Kakuk et al

This is the evolution from guys who initially used converted BCDs/wing systems, typically due to a higher buoyancy requirement from the steel cylinders/weighting needed for colder water exposure protection.


One thing worthy of note is the 'big names' associated with each system. Generally, we can see that the leading exponents of the British/Mexico school are a generation below those of the American/Florida school.

I don't know if that indicates a potential future trend... the internet and social media marketing certainly plays a big role in directing trends and forming opinions; and there tends to be a generational bias in online-expertise to progressively younger generations. It takes two factors; (1) Reputation/expertise and (2) Size of the online footprint.
 
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I share that sentiment. Does not work well on the internet though.

'Let dive' is something you can rarely prove to the satisfaction of people in a discussion.

Many sidemount divers today have never had the chance to perfect their backmount training before they realized they could progress much faster concentrating on sidemount only.

There is only a minority of an older generation that got that chance, but most are respected and a lot more experienced than the 'newer generation' (that is not age related, just influenced by the time they first heard about sidemount diving).
Those mostly dislike the 'sidemount zealots' and have started to perceive them everywhere.
In my perception, however, those do not exist at all outside the internet.

On the internet you just can present arguments supporting your opinion.
Presenting or too lightly accepting any to weaken your position is exploited mercilessly.
The usefulness of sidemount is easy to prove in theory, it's effectiveness shown in pictures and video.
Sidemount divers 'win' almost every discussion before it even starts, emotions start to run high and people make fools of themselves most of the time in the long run or give up frustrated and with emotions to suppress the next time.

Sidemount is a very good topic nowadays to start a thread with active participation to get out of control quickly.
Sidemounters themselves often seem even worse than backmounters, troll-baiting and always trying to outdo each other in generous acceptance of other diving styles even when it is often just done out of context to distract and ridicule, by people all exclusively diving sidemount themselves or preferring it at least.

That's exactly me, having picked up sidemount after dive #15 of my life or thereabouts. I had a lower back surgery, so backmount was inherently uncomfortable, more difficult to get in the water (someone had to toss my bc into the water then pick it up later, which sucks.), and at just 15 dives I never learned how to really dive it.

I'm that new wave of divers that just knows how to sidemount, and really just... would need more training in order to backmount because I'm not competent at it and it would be dangerous. However since being pigeonholed into sidemounting, for those various reasons, means that there are just some dives I realize I just can't do. Oil rigs off the coast of LA? That's a hot drop into serious waters and I can't be fiddling with tanks on the surface for that for various dangerous reasons (legs of the rig, the boat, sudden/swift currents, etc.). So if you decide to exclusively preach one way, or are otherwise sticking to just that one configuration or method, you need to be frank with yourself about the limitations.

I don't judge the gear other people dive. Sometimes I'm in shock that someone can claim to be comfortable with backmount double 85+s because the thought of doing that is eyewatering to me, or confused why you'd dive a seemingly 50lbs lift wing in the tropics with one al80 on a 30' dive, but I don't care as long as whoever I'm diving with understands (not just repeats what someone else said, actually UNDERSTANDS) their equipment and can also understand mine when I explain it. So hopefully nobody's judging me for my gear choices either.
 
Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion, the internet is a place where a 25-dive novice can lecture a 6000-dive pro... and probably receive support from other novices to boot.

I was once told by a fellow who took issue with something I'd said that I needed to log off and go diving more often. And although I typically do more dives in a month than he'd logged in his lifetime, I agreed with him ... :wink:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
The way I see it;

1) British/Mexico - Typically minimalist and lightweight, aluminum cylinders, bare harness, D-ring lower cylinder attachments on the rear waist-belt, continuous and loop bungees, triangle or diamond bladders (lift focused over the hips, less up the torso) Example rigs: Razor, XDeep, Z-Trim etc. Key names: Bogearts, Martin, Dallas et al

This is the evolution from guys who initially used hydration bladders (i.e.MSR) for buoyancy, with a basic harness for cylinder and weight attachment.

2) American/Florida - Robust 'big rigs', steel cylinders, in-built harness systems, butt plate with rails, old-school, independent and ring bungees, donut or horseshoe bladders. Example rigs: Armadillo, SMS100, Halcyon, Hog etc Key names: Hires, Sorensen, Kakuk et al

This is the evolution from guys who initially used converted BCDs/wing systems, typically due to a higher buoyancy requirement from the steel cylinders/weighting needed for colder water exposure protection.


One thing worthy of note is the 'big names' associated with each system. Generally, we can see that the leading exponents of the British/Mexico school are a generation below those of the American/Florida school.

I don't know if that indicates a potential future trend... the internet and social media marketing certainly plays a big role in directing trends and forming opinions; and there tends to be a generational bias in online-expertise to progressively younger generations. It takes two factors; (1) Reputation/expertise and (2) Size of the online footprint.

Pretty good synopsis, but I'd put the Nomad into the examples in Option 2, since it existed before the SMS, Halcyon or Hog rigs did and is probably more popular than any of them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
If someone can give me a valid reason as to why SM does not belong in OW or OW classes, I would love to hear it.

If you are asking about somebody taking OW in side mount I have no problem with it.

If you area talking about teaching a typical OW class with all the students in side mount, then I have some questions. The point is to prepare the students in the brief time they are in class. They should be prepared for what they will face. The majority of student will go off to a resort and rent gear that is back mount in a jacket. Since that is what they will mostly see that is the first thing they should learn.
 
Weird.

This past weekend it was DIR guys, SM guys, and CCR guys all working together and getting along fine. Not even a hint of "my config is better than yours" at all.

Once you get out of ginnie springs and the millpond, no one cares.

You forgot Peacock. :)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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