Is Side Mount the new DIR??? Building resentment towards us as a group...

[Bennno]

 

[beester]

They can be as self-righteous and vociferous as anyone else.

I had to look that word up... vociferous... thanks I learned something today.

I've some close friends who are diving sidemount all the time. They are of the old breed (meaning basically manufactering their own gear, because there was not much when they started)... and are very good cave-divers. They don't use side-mount as a tool (ie how GUE perceives it... only use it when the restriction warrants it), but dive it always.

I dive with them from time to time (recreational dives), but won't do in caves or wreck penetration, not because they are not good divers, or their choices are not sound, but because I don't know sidemount procedures well enough and I'm quite sure that both systems in a team are not the best solution (they agree).

So far I've not seen any ridiculing going on... and in most divespots it's a mix of recreational gear, backmount hogarthian gear and sidemount gear. On wrecks I'm not seeying a lot of sidemount divers, in caves I do, and they stay at the same places were I stay, but most of the discussions are on conditions in caves, and diving in general, not a detailed evaluation of sidemount vs backmount.

The only time when I saw someone diving sidemount being ridiculed, I was basically the cause (sorry to say). This was a lady who was a Padi DM and had taken GUE fundies and switched to the UTD sidemount system (don't know the name but the sidemount system with the isolator). I didn't care but after a dive, having a drink in a pub with the crew she started commenting on backmount vs sidemount and tried to convince me that her system was better in caves and on/in wrecks than hogarthian backmount. If this was coming from someone like Andy with a lot of wreck experience I would take notes.... If this comes (like in this case) from someone with only recreational experience... wel let's just stay that my "point of view cog" is a bit rusty and it takes some pulling to turn.

No zealots in my part of the woods... (mmmm not true... there are zealots but they just dive recreational... so my rusty cog doesn't turn and I just shrug it off).

PS: I should stop using the "new posts" functionality because I always wind up in discussions I have no place in. (in this case the sidemount forum). Sry.

 

[DevonDiver]

The only time when I saw someone diving sidemount being ridiculed,...had taken GUE fundies and switched to the UTD sidemount system...tried to convince me that her system was better in caves and on/in wrecks than hogarthian backmount.

This is what I'd describe as a zealot, involved in championing the development; and also engaging in 'internal schism' over minutiae issues.

From my observations, and I'm sure some will have the perspective to agree, this behavior tends to stem from relative novices in the activity. It is a form of elitism by association.

If the relatively novice diver has cause to feel that elitism by association, then they will also feel compelled and motivated to both vigorously defend and promote the aspect that they associate with. Often with far more authority than they actually possess, and often with only the most superficial of understanding. They are, of course, oblivious to that reality.

Because they enjoy the association, any critique, condemnation or questioning of the issue is felt to reflect on them. It diminishes their sense of elitism. Thus, it becomes a personal and emotional issue - a reflection on their self-worth and perceived status.

We saw this with GUE/DIR... the most vociferous () commentators were often around Fundies level. But if you spoke to a diver at tech/cave 2+ levels and they are much more reasonable and open-minded in debate. If you are elite by virtue, rather than association, then there is no threat to ego in having your practices or beliefs examined.

I agree, we also see this increasingly with sidemount. It is to be expected. Sidemount will give many relatively novice divers the opportunity to experience a form of elitism by association. There will be zealots... guaranteed... as it is a fact of human nature.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We saw this with GUE/DIR... the most vociferous () commentators were often around Fundies level. But if you spoke to a diver at tech/cave 2+ levels and they are much more reasonable and open-minded in debate. If you are elite by virtue, rather than association, then there is no threat to ego in having your practices or beliefs examined.

I agree, we also see this increasingly with sidemount. It is to be expected. Sidemount will give many relatively novice divers the opportunity to experience a form of elitism by association. There will be zealots... guaranteed... as it is a fact of human nature.

Agreed ... around here we had a 30-day rule for new Fundies grads ... they weren't allowed to talk about it till 30 days after they finished the class. That gave 'em a chance to start to see how much there was yet for them to learn. Maybe a similar rule for sidemount converts would be useful ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Razorista]

... till 30 days after they finished the class...

That's another problem with sidemount divers compared to the tec divers.
Immediately after typical training many do not think themselves fully trained and are very self-conciuous, before realizing most others aren't trained much better.
Most do not dare to talk much for half a year or so and when they start they often not only think themselves experienced, they really are.

 

[boulderjohn]

A couple of years ago I started having problems after a weekend of backmount diving. My hands would go numb, and my entire right arm especially would start to go numb in the night--it was a strange combination of being numb and being in pain at the same time. I was eventually diagnosed with spinal stenosis, with the explanation from the spine specialist being that walking around on shore or on a boat with my heavy (Worthington LP 108) doubles before and after my dives was the source of my problems. I got sidemount training, and I bought the gear for it. I still had the problems, though.

Then a different doctor gave a different diagnosis. All of my problems were caused by carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist. A simple out patient surgery later I am completely cured. My problem was caused by hauling all the heavy gear around.

So I have both systems. I assumed from everything I was told that once I went sidemount I would never want to backmount again, but that is not the case. I tend to use backmount exclusively when going off a boat or when working with students, so I do that more. I see advantages of each, and I don't see any compelling reason to go exclusively to either.

I wonder if some people make a decision and then feel an overwhelming psychological need to justify that decision. I saw that in the tendencies of one of the biggest offenders in the old DIR debates. No matter what he was talking about, he felt an overwhelming need to exaggerate the advantages of his position to an absurd degree, but more importantly, he had an even more overwhelming need to exaggerate the disadvantages of the opposing side to an even more absurd degree.

FWIW, they said the anti-backmount sentiment is even worse in the panhandle.

Absolutely. That's where I learned sidemount, and I would guess that 90% of the divers there use sidemount exclusively. Show up in back mount and you will certainly get some comments. I will be there in about a month, and I just might trot off to the caves with both sidemount and backmount tanks filled. I wonder what they will say about that.

 

[MSargeant]

I used to dive sidemount exclusively, thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread.

I do still think it's the most comfortable way to dive and the near endless kit fiddling opportunities forever keep me tinkering, and I will recommend it as a style of diving if its applicable.
However I'm starting to build towards getting a twinset (doubles for all you folk across the pond ).These days, and most of my dives at the minute are on single BM at local puddles

I have noticed a spike in zealousness about sidemount "being the best thing ever" and in certain circles about certain harnesses/kit being the best thing ever. On a smaller level it's the persons themselves that promote whatever they're doing lately as superior...

It's tiresome.

 

[beester]

We saw this with GUE/DIR... the most vociferous () commentators were often around Fundies level. But if you spoke to a diver at tech/cave 2+ levels and they are much more reasonable and open-minded in debate. If you are elite by virtue, rather than association, then there is no threat to ego in having your practices or beliefs examined.

Very true... and this is exactly what stopped me from joining GUE sooner (there was a very loud, very zealot community just across the border in the Netherlands (with the same discussions we regularly see here but "very stroke vs dir"). Finally I managed to talk to some really experienced GUE divers/instructors and they were much more mellow. For example I did my fundies on air, because it was the most practical way to organise it, and we were only diving to max 10m so the END was never violated... etc etc etc...

Agreed ... around here we had a 30-day rule for new Fundies grads ... they weren't allowed to talk about it till 30 days after they finished the class. That gave 'em a chance to start to see how much there was yet for them to learn. Maybe a similar rule for sidemount converts would be useful ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Good idea!

That's another problem with sidemount divers compared to the tec divers.
Immediately after typical training many do not think themselves fully trained and are very self-conciuous, before realizing most others aren't trained much better.
Most do not dare to talk much for half a year or so and when they start they often not only think themselves experienced, they really are.

Are you basically saying that sidemount divers are never zealots? Because the example I gave states exactly the oposite. Small check... if you've dived half a year recreational in sidemount does this merrit discussing the benefits of sidemount diving in caves or wrecks (technical diving), because that is exactly what this lady was doing.

 

[Wookie]

I'll name names.... Some of the folks I respect the most on SB, and no longer interact with are here in this thread, and it's all because of sidemount. Pete, you came back from a trip in the Sea of Cortez where you were diving sidemount and touting the benefits like a convert. I had seen only Rob Neto dive SM on my boat, he did fine, but I mentioned that I thought it was the wrong tool for the job diving from a liveaboard with a 6 foot drop into the water. At that time, Bob jumped me and derided me for telling him what "tool" worked best. Our relationship has been strained at best since then. Since that time, you have come to understand what I said and meant. That while diving sidemount in open ocean from small boats where you can get in and have a bottle at a time handed down/up is fine, doing a giant stride from 6 feet and climbing the (26" wide) ladder with handrails and narrow openings with all gear intact is not so appropriate. I miss interacting with Bob, I'm glad that you can see my point, even if you don't agree with it, we can go on to other issues we don't agree on. But it has become like DIR and indeed, the whole tech diving forum. I left the tech diving forum because I was wrong in all of my opinions. Now, between Pete Mesley and I we run more tech divers than any other boat, especially now that the last Northeast Liveaboard is gone. I know a little about tech diving, and I have opinions about what works and what doesn't and how to do things safely. I'm happy to share those opinions, and I'm happy when opposing opinions are made, but my opinions are based on watching tens of sidemount divers, hundreds of backmount divers, and thousands of rebreather divers dive open ocean moored and liveboat tech dives. I can tell you what I've seen work. I can't tell you how to rig for Sidemount, just like I can't teach you cave diving, I don't do either. I don't penetrate wrecks, either, I play around the outside. The wreck doesn't care, BTW. I'll never tout the Razr or the Z or the Stealth or the X-tec, because I don't know squat about any of them. What I do know is how folks move like wallowing hippos on the boat if they aren't rigged properly, because their weight is too low and swinging as the boat rocks. I also know that if they come up the ladder and don't twist to go through the gate sideways they will chip Melanie's paint, and I know for third that the sidemount advocates are so infinitesimally small of a percentage of our normal customers that it isn't a market worth chasing.

Then you get the brand new guys, guys who have 25-50 dives telling the guys who invented sidemount how completely messed up they are, because some other guy wrote a book about what they saw, and when someone like Andy comes along to try to guide the newer diver, they are dismissed as dinosaurs. Well, maybe some of us are dinosaurs, but 6,000 safe dives should count for something.

I only tend to lurk on the SM threads, because they are filled with the righteous, the pious, the true believers. It's a lot like watching arguments between the Baptists and the Church of Christ. It frustrates me because I want to grab them and shake them and say "for hell's sake, you're both Christians.".

For Hell's sake, we're all divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My hands would go numb, and my entire right arm especially would start to go numb in the night--it was a strange combination of being numb and being in pain at the same time. I was eventually diagnosed with spinal stenosis, with the explanation from the spine specialist being that walking around on shore or on a boat with my heavy (Worthington LP 108) doubles before and after my dives was the source of my problems. I got sidemount training, and I bought the gear for it. I still had the problems, though.

Then a different doctor gave a different diagnosis. All of my problems were caused by carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist. A simple out patient surgery later I am completely cured. My problem was caused by hauling all the heavy gear around.

That's what I thought of immediately upon reading the first sentence I bolded ... I've been dealing with carpal tunnel syndrome for years in both wrists due to spending much of the past 40 years on the business end of a keyboard. I had the surgery on my right wrist three years ago. I was supposed to schedule another surgery for the left wrist, but in the interim found some stretching exercises that have helped manage the problem without the need for surgery. I do these exercises daily ... if I skip a few days, the numbness, tingling and pain come back when I sleep.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)