Is safe second really needed?

[Deefstes]

Buddy breathing is not easy, even for divers who have been taught the skill. My buddy (wife) and I try to practice these skills from time to time and I'm shocked to see how buddy breathing still seems to send our buoyancy control into orbit.

Let me put it this way, if I'm buddying with my wife (whom I trust, whom I think is a good diver and without whom I have only done three dives), I would MUCH rather have an octo to breathe of should we ever have a real world OOA situation than having to buddy breathe. It's just not fun.

 

[pittyyofool]

I have to agree DaleC gave the only good response. It is "inconsiderate" to divers I do not know, partially due to the modern incompetent training standards. So on the "rare occasion" (1 out of 20) that I dive near the general public I should put an octo back on my regs to be nice... As far as reef beating with the octo goes, I learned long ago how to tame the beast. I would brass clip it on to my lower right D-ring, but I would still get flack because it is not "grab and pull". After 10 or so years of that I decided to remove it. So in tern I will bite the bullet and brass clip an octo on when I dive near other people. I am open to other ideas for securing the octo that are "grab and pull" and have an almost 0% come loose on its own rate.

fdog: thank you for the input, but it has happened to me. I was om my boat diving and unknowingly set my tank on my regs and cracked the front plastic cover. Long story short 20min in to the dive my reg fell apart and I sucked water. I did not even think of the octo, I took the reg out of my mouth and saw no cover or diaphragm. To me the simple solution was to use my finger and push the demand lever to force my reg to free flow. So I did and safely acceded breathing from a free flowing reg.

AzAtty: Did you read the post non-tech within the NDL. And I have been there and done that! I was 100ft into the Moody (off the cost of Long Beach CA in 145fsw) when I suspected a bad mix due to severe stomach cramps, the mix was probably OK but I would rather play it safe in that situation. I used my buddies 7ft primary to exit and get to a stage bottle hanging from my boat.

TSandM: I have always admired your sensible knowledgeable posts. To answer you question Yes, I am fine having my life support system ripped out of my mouth by another diver that is not willing to give back. As they teach in the USCG rescue course " Do Not Ever let yourself as the rescuer become the victim, If need be render them unconscious (punch them in the face) in order to assure your safety, then complete the rescue." Because a panicking "rescuer" is nothing more than another victim. When the rescuer properly gets control of a "drought" victim in salt water the victims heart can stay beating up to 10 minutes after unconsciousness and revival rate is high and brain damage is minimal in the first 5 minutes. Yes, it might be selfish of me not to carry an octo for my buddy, but I trust him not to freak out on me and we do have an understanding...
I understand the reasoning for always diving the same set up. I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina. To tell you the truth, I have on a few occasions, just put on fins and held the tank and regs under my arm for a dive or two in perfect conditions.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

I often encounter questions along the following lines:

Why X? X is unnecessary, X is inconvenient, doing X proves you're incompetent. Please explain X including proof, two or more citations from recognized authorities, and three independent examples of research justifying X.

I usually rephrase questions like this as a statement: I don't like X and I don't want to do it!. However, others may rise to the troll-bait and answer, and no matter how reasonable the answer the follow-up is often relentless nit-pickery attempting to invalidate any answers defending X.

If you don't want to carry an octo, don't carry an octo. You don't need to justify your decision with strangers on the internet, nor do you need to rationalize your decision by engaging in faux reasoning. Your buddy (if any) is the only person with an interest in your strategy for dealing with emergencies.

Be safe and have fun with my blessing (for what little it is worth).

 

[TSandM]

I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina

I would respectfully request that you term this a Hog rig rather than a DIR rig, because your attitude toward diving is not at all DIR. (Which is fine, but please don't use the term, lest others believe that punching someone who needs your spare gas is a DIR approach to things.)

 

[Walter]

Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?

No. It's nice to have, but it's not necessary.

Because many divers are not taught how to buddy breathe anymore.

Ah, agencies have given up training divers adequately, so it becomes everyone else's reponsibility to pick up the slack? I don't buy it.

What if your buddy or some other panic stricken, out-of-air diver snatches out your primary and won't give it back?

You take it back.

My parents tell a story of checkout dives in the 70s where buddy breathing was standard... Sounds scary to me.

Maybe to you, but to me it's much more scary to dive with folks who are afraid of buddy breathing. Fear of buddy breathing sho0ws a basic lack of confidence and skill level.

If you dive habitually with this buddy, and both of you are completely comfortable buddy breathing, and you would be fine with having somebody ELSE swim up to you and mug you for your reg and not give it back . . .

So you then buddy breathe with your buddy.

I have not read all the replies yet but my understanding of octo necessity is: It's no more than your courtesy to your buddy.

Don't you consider it a courtesy to everyone to read all the replies (there were only 13 before yours) before you reply?

Buddy breathing is not easy

Buddy breathing is extremely easy.

My buddy (wife) and I try to practice these skills from time to time and I'm shocked to see how buddy breathing still seems to send our buoyancy control into orbit.

You need more practice.

I would respectfully request that you term this a Hog rig rather than a DIR rig, because your attitude toward diving is not at all DIR. (Which is fine, but please don't use the term, lest others believe that punching someone who needs your spare gas is a DIR approach to things.)

Why would anyone think it was a DIR approach when he just stated he wasn't diving DIR?

 

[captain]

Seeing as you asked... Because it is _____ up if you dive around other divers (which it sounds like you do).

To me, removing your octo in an era where divers are not taught to buddy breath effectively is a selfish move designed to impress other divers with how "terminally unique" you are but what you are really saying through your actions is: "don't neccisarily look to me for help if you need it - I'll only help on my old, out dated terms." That's good if everbody understands the rules but irresponsible if they do not. If you are so experienced I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out.

If you are soloing or diving a site where other divers are not present I don't see a problem, I believe in doing whatever you want in those situations; but around other divers, if you cared about someone other than yourself or your immediate buddy you wouldn't remove a piece of safety gear designed to aid THE OTHER GUY. Maybe that's why the DM's give you the dirty looks. Their training asks them think of the other guy.

If you can't keep your octo clipped off perhaps a OW refresher course is in order. After all, you're the one removing it so I assume you're the one with the problem. Even with my low dive count I managed to figure out how to bungee the back up. Was it really such a problem for you?

Hope I didn't sugar coat that too much but I'm not impressed.

Is not ever having carried an octo rather then deciding to remove it also considered selfish or do I get grandfathered into the octo era because I started diving in the pre-octo era.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have to agree DaleC gave the only good response. It is "inconsiderate" to divers I do not know,

I agree that Dale gave the correct response ... but I believe the correct term was "terminally unique".

partially due to the modern incompetent training standards.

Math teachers no longer teach people how to use a slide rule either ... does that make their training standards "incompetent"?

Why teach outdated techniques simply to accommodate the egos of the few remaining scuba dinosaurs out there?

So on the "rare occasion" (1 out of 20) that I dive near the general public I should put an octo back on my regs to be nice... As far as reef beating with the octo goes, I learned long ago how to tame the beast. I would brass clip it on to my lower right D-ring, but I would still get flack because it is not "grab and pull". After 10 or so years of that I decided to remove it. So in tern I will bite the bullet and brass clip an octo on when I dive near other people. I am open to other ideas for securing the octo that are "grab and pull" and have an almost 0% come loose on its own rate.

There are several alternatives to choose from ... the most obviously reliable is a bungeed secondary and a primary that you donate in the event of an OOA.

fdog: thank you for the input, but it has happened to me. I was om my boat diving and unknowingly set my tank on my regs and cracked the front plastic cover. Long story short 20min in to the dive my reg fell apart and I sucked water. I did not even think of the octo, I took the reg out of my mouth and saw no cover or diaphragm. To me the simple solution was to use my finger and push the demand lever to force my reg to free flow. So I did and safely acceded breathing from a free flowing reg.

I compliment your ability to do things the hard way.

TSandM: I have always admired your sensible knowledgeable posts. To answer you question Yes, I am fine having my life support system ripped out of my mouth by another diver that is not willing to give back. As they teach in the USCG rescue course " Do Not Ever let yourself as the rescuer become the victim, If need be render them unconscious (punch them in the face) in order to assure your safety, then complete the rescue." Because a panicking "rescuer" is nothing more than another victim. When the rescuer properly gets control of a "drought" victim in salt water the victims heart can stay beating up to 10 minutes after unconsciousness and revival rate is high and brain damage is minimal in the first 5 minutes.

Why not just use your dive knife to fend him off ... after all, it takes a while for someone to bleed to death, and you can always suture him back up once you're on the boat ...

Yes, it might be selfish of me not to carry an octo for my buddy, but I trust him not to freak out on me and we do have an understanding...

Diving's all about personal choices ... mine is to simply not dive with "selfish" dive buddies. I'm all for people making choices, but the cost/benefit analysis needs to fit the circumstances. If I'm diving with another diver, my choices have to take into account why I'm choosing to have a dive buddy in the first place.

I understand the reasoning for always diving the same set up. I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina.

That statement is a contradiction in terms. "DIR" doesn't have a rig ... they have a method and mindset that includes a certain gear configuration. Wearing the gear doesn't make you DIR ... and everything you've typed in this thread suggests that you're about as far from DIR as a diver can possibly get. I'd recommend leaving DIR out of the discussion.

To tell you the truth, I have on a few occasions, just put on fins and held the tank and regs under my arm for a dive or two in perfect conditions.

How terminally unique ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Is not ever having carried an octo rather then deciding to remove it also considered selfish or do I get grandfathered into the octo era because I started diving in the pre-octo era.

It depends on whether or not you're diving with a buddy ... and whether or not that buddy has agreed to dive with someone who doesn't use one.

There's more to being a dive buddy than just jumping in the water with someone. If you are both on the same page in terms of what you're doing, then it's fine. If you're of a mind that in the event of a problem your dive buddy's going to have to deal with it on your terms ... then I hope you made that clear when the two of you were planning the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Blackwood]

Why not just use your dive knife to fend him off

I'm getting fond memories of a really funny thread.

 

[trogloxene]

I have never had a flat tire or a dead battery in my truck. I am going to remove my spare tire and jumper cables today . Truthfully, you never need it - until you NEED it. Personally, I would keep it

Sean