undrwater
Contributor
This may be the garbage happy diver is talking about.
Is it OK for a non instructor to do a refresher?
- Thread starter Eric Sedletzky
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It is absolutely no problem. The certs are valid. So a 'normal diver' is than acting just as a buddy. It is always allowed to practise skills and explain things. So there is no problem of doing that. There is no law that forbids it.
The refresher is just advised, but a lot of people go in the water just before holiday, just to have fun on holiday and don't spent time and money to do a refresher. So they go in the water right before their trip, just to have 1 or 2 dives logged. Oh, and here it are no pooldives. Also you cannot log a pooldive as a dive. So if divecenters have 'the rule' that it must be less than 6 months to be in the water, otherwise a refresher, you must log the dive as a dive, so go on a real dive.
The refresher is just advised, but a lot of people go in the water just before holiday, just to have fun on holiday and don't spent time and money to do a refresher. So they go in the water right before their trip, just to have 1 or 2 dives logged. Oh, and here it are no pooldives. Also you cannot log a pooldive as a dive. So if divecenters have 'the rule' that it must be less than 6 months to be in the water, otherwise a refresher, you must log the dive as a dive, so go on a real dive.
Still Kicking
Contributor
I am an inactive instructor. In the last year, i have taken two certified friends (both in their 70s no less) on shallow ocean dives in cold water but benign conditions for the first time after long periods of inactivity. No formal instruction -- just a buddy dive -- but i was keeping a close eye of course and helping as needed.
One guy was as fit as a fish, the other guy not so much but, with some guidance, he got the hang of it by the end of the dive. Both experiences were great fun for my friends and for me, even though I was a bit nervous. I took a risk and, had it ended badly, as an instructor I would have been in some potential legal jeopardy. Hopefully, their families would have understood the situation but who knows how people will act.
I am not sure a waiver would have helped -- especially as I am not current teaching status.
I love helping people get back into scuba especially if they are friends but I don't think I will try to go three for three. Luck runs out at some point.
One guy was as fit as a fish, the other guy not so much but, with some guidance, he got the hang of it by the end of the dive. Both experiences were great fun for my friends and for me, even though I was a bit nervous. I took a risk and, had it ended badly, as an instructor I would have been in some potential legal jeopardy. Hopefully, their families would have understood the situation but who knows how people will act.
I am not sure a waiver would have helped -- especially as I am not current teaching status.
I love helping people get back into scuba especially if they are friends but I don't think I will try to go three for three. Luck runs out at some point.
Cthippo
Contributor
Where is her snorkel?!?
Having been through what I have, seen the lawsuits that I have, and been asked to give opinions on a few, I personally wouldn't. That's just me.
But then I don't want to do any more teaching in the water. None. I have a new NAUI instructor that bought some gear from me yesterday that wants to come back next month and talk to me about how I taught. I did my AI/DM crossover with a NAUI/YMCA IT and could have gone either way.
I agreed to talk to him about improving his classes but no in water stuff.
It's usually not the diver you have to worry about if stuff happens. It's the family and they don't sign the waivers. And not being a pro, you can's ask for one anyway. If you do, then you are setting yourself for something other than just a couple people getting in the water.
If the one guy has a pool, find an independent instructor to give them a formal refresher. Then take them on a nice easy dive. I might want to be in the pool just hanging out when they are doing it. That way you get some idea of what you are taking on if you decide to dive with them.
Or see how big of a bullet you dodged by having someone else do it.
But then I don't want to do any more teaching in the water. None. I have a new NAUI instructor that bought some gear from me yesterday that wants to come back next month and talk to me about how I taught. I did my AI/DM crossover with a NAUI/YMCA IT and could have gone either way.
I agreed to talk to him about improving his classes but no in water stuff.
It's usually not the diver you have to worry about if stuff happens. It's the family and they don't sign the waivers. And not being a pro, you can's ask for one anyway. If you do, then you are setting yourself for something other than just a couple people getting in the water.
If the one guy has a pool, find an independent instructor to give them a formal refresher. Then take them on a nice easy dive. I might want to be in the pool just hanging out when they are doing it. That way you get some idea of what you are taking on if you decide to dive with them.
Or see how big of a bullet you dodged by having someone else do it.
what a great question. and a very interesting one. the correct answer may depend on where you live and how the laws are applied there.
first, if you were planning on joining a pool session run by a local dive shop, but not paying for the help of an instructor, i would assume the shop would not allow this. i certainly wouldn't.
second, if you were going to rent your own private pool space, and no one else was there but yourself and your two possible dive buddies, then perhaps that would be ok ?? or would it ??
third, if you ever held any pro certification at any time in the past, but are currently not active (and have no insurance) i would not do it. i know i wouldn't. the only exception for me would be if it was my spouse i was helping.
fourth, perhaps the newer diver might be able to get by with only a refresher. but the one who was certified 20 years ago should probably consider redoing the whole course.
here is a long example that may or may not help you decide:
i went on vacation a few years back with my spouse and my brother. i was an active instructor at the time. my spouse also dives. but my brother had not been diving in many years.
i had pleaded with him to get a proper refresher before the trip (he lives in a different city than i do). he chose not to.
once we met on holiday, we all decided to do a couple of easy/shallow shore dives together. other than a few really basic tasks i helped him with (like putting the gear together) he would not let me run him through even the most basic drills (mask clear / reg clear etc). we are men right? so we don't need any help from anyone. lol
the first daytime shore dive was fine. we also did a night dive there as well. he really enjoyed that one. but him and i did become briefly separated on the day dive and he ended up at the surface. that was my first warning.
he decided he wanted to do a double tank reef dive. we booked the easy afternoon boat. schedule got screwed up and we were not on that boat. our only other option was the next morning. i did not realize they put us on the advanced small boat instead of the larger slow boat. this was my second warning.
that morning the boat arrived early for some reason and we almost missed it. no it was not our fault at all. but it caused us to have to rush to get everything on board etc. we were also delayed because the shop gave me the wrong tanks i had pre booked (i was diving sm). so the whole process had my brother very agitated and obviously frustrated. warning number three.
at the first dive site we entered the water together and began the decent. he lost control and was descending too quickly, he panicked, and bolted to the surface from about 30 feet.
i slowly ascended and asked how i could help. he was beyond help and had to stay with the boat. i descended solo, caught up to the guide and buddied with him.
my brother somehow convinced the boat captain to drag him (while he was still in the water) over top of our group. he then descended solo and appeared out of nowhere to my surprise. he seemed ok. i had him hold my waist d-ring to avoid getting separated.
everything seemed fine until he suddenly, without warning, let go and again bolted to the surface from what was probably 60 feet or so.
we could see he made the surface and the boat immediately came to him so we completed the dive.
needless to say, he did not even attempt the second dive.
so what is my point?
no matter what the law might say, do you really want to take any type of responsibility for either of those two divers?
yes, a certified diver is, and should be, responsible for their own decisions. but does the more seasoned diver (even if they are not a professional) not have at least some type of moral/ethic responsibility when agreeing to dive with another certified diver that is clearly not ready to be back in the water?
i think what we can do to help protect each other is to make sure that divers in this situation at the very least get some guidance from a trained dive pro before jumping back in the water after being away from the sport.
if they refuse to do so, maybe the best thing we could do to help them (and protect ourselves) is to say "no. i won't dive with you".
just fyi.....i have been diving over 30 years and was a pro level diver for about the last 10 years, and i never go diving on vacation without getting in the pool with my spouse first to check our gear, and run us both through the basics.
my story could have turned out quite badly. i won't put myself or another diver in that situation again if it can be avoided.
first, if you were planning on joining a pool session run by a local dive shop, but not paying for the help of an instructor, i would assume the shop would not allow this. i certainly wouldn't.
second, if you were going to rent your own private pool space, and no one else was there but yourself and your two possible dive buddies, then perhaps that would be ok ?? or would it ??
third, if you ever held any pro certification at any time in the past, but are currently not active (and have no insurance) i would not do it. i know i wouldn't. the only exception for me would be if it was my spouse i was helping.
fourth, perhaps the newer diver might be able to get by with only a refresher. but the one who was certified 20 years ago should probably consider redoing the whole course.
here is a long example that may or may not help you decide:
i went on vacation a few years back with my spouse and my brother. i was an active instructor at the time. my spouse also dives. but my brother had not been diving in many years.
i had pleaded with him to get a proper refresher before the trip (he lives in a different city than i do). he chose not to.
once we met on holiday, we all decided to do a couple of easy/shallow shore dives together. other than a few really basic tasks i helped him with (like putting the gear together) he would not let me run him through even the most basic drills (mask clear / reg clear etc). we are men right? so we don't need any help from anyone. lol
the first daytime shore dive was fine. we also did a night dive there as well. he really enjoyed that one. but him and i did become briefly separated on the day dive and he ended up at the surface. that was my first warning.
he decided he wanted to do a double tank reef dive. we booked the easy afternoon boat. schedule got screwed up and we were not on that boat. our only other option was the next morning. i did not realize they put us on the advanced small boat instead of the larger slow boat. this was my second warning.
that morning the boat arrived early for some reason and we almost missed it. no it was not our fault at all. but it caused us to have to rush to get everything on board etc. we were also delayed because the shop gave me the wrong tanks i had pre booked (i was diving sm). so the whole process had my brother very agitated and obviously frustrated. warning number three.
at the first dive site we entered the water together and began the decent. he lost control and was descending too quickly, he panicked, and bolted to the surface from about 30 feet.
i slowly ascended and asked how i could help. he was beyond help and had to stay with the boat. i descended solo, caught up to the guide and buddied with him.
my brother somehow convinced the boat captain to drag him (while he was still in the water) over top of our group. he then descended solo and appeared out of nowhere to my surprise. he seemed ok. i had him hold my waist d-ring to avoid getting separated.
everything seemed fine until he suddenly, without warning, let go and again bolted to the surface from what was probably 60 feet or so.
we could see he made the surface and the boat immediately came to him so we completed the dive.
needless to say, he did not even attempt the second dive.
so what is my point?
no matter what the law might say, do you really want to take any type of responsibility for either of those two divers?
yes, a certified diver is, and should be, responsible for their own decisions. but does the more seasoned diver (even if they are not a professional) not have at least some type of moral/ethic responsibility when agreeing to dive with another certified diver that is clearly not ready to be back in the water?
i think what we can do to help protect each other is to make sure that divers in this situation at the very least get some guidance from a trained dive pro before jumping back in the water after being away from the sport.
if they refuse to do so, maybe the best thing we could do to help them (and protect ourselves) is to say "no. i won't dive with you".
just fyi.....i have been diving over 30 years and was a pro level diver for about the last 10 years, and i never go diving on vacation without getting in the pool with my spouse first to check our gear, and run us both through the basics.
my story could have turned out quite badly. i won't put myself or another diver in that situation again if it can be avoided.
OP
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
I might just blow the whole thing off and tell both of them if they want to go diving then they need to figure it out and prepare themselves with a professional on their own. That’s out of my job description.
Here’s why:
If someone has not dived for over twenty years, why? The guy with the pool, his dad got the whole family involved and certified in Hawaii long time ago for vacations. Yes, he abalone dived and did a few (two according to him) scuba dives off our coast then quit. So my thinking is he originally certified to please his dad but other than that he could take it or leave it. He also never owned gear, he always rented.
I’ve taken breaks too and was dry for over a year but it was after getting a hip replaced and also had other stuff going on in my life, but the hankering and chomping at the bit was always there. Now I’m back to being an animal and loving it! Yes it’s all shallow urchin diving but it’s diving with a purpose and that’s what keeps me going.
The second guy might be a little more motivated but still his passion is not there enough for me. He owns his gear but depends on people to do everything for him. Why hasn’t he seeked out diving on his own and looked at dive clubs to join or gone on trips? I did when I first got certified, I couldn’t get enough!
What ab diver gets certified locally then never dives locally after they get certified? Then he goes to Hawaii for dives 5-8 and doesn’t take his own top notch gear? Who here wouldn’t take their own brand new gear?
Maybe it’s just a case of massive procrastination but I can think of many other things to procrastinate over besides diving. I would be the type to play hookey on the things I’m supposed to be doing TO GO diving!
So I’m not convinced these two guys deserve my time and attention in this matter. I’m just not seeing enough motivation from either of them. Looking at their track records I don’t think they take diving seriously enough. I think they are dabblers not real divers.
What I’ll tell them if they hit me up again is to go to a shop and take a refresher with an instructor. Once they do that then they can hit me up. If they proceed with that advice then I’ll have an inkling that they are serious.
Here’s why:
If someone has not dived for over twenty years, why? The guy with the pool, his dad got the whole family involved and certified in Hawaii long time ago for vacations. Yes, he abalone dived and did a few (two according to him) scuba dives off our coast then quit. So my thinking is he originally certified to please his dad but other than that he could take it or leave it. He also never owned gear, he always rented.
I’ve taken breaks too and was dry for over a year but it was after getting a hip replaced and also had other stuff going on in my life, but the hankering and chomping at the bit was always there. Now I’m back to being an animal and loving it! Yes it’s all shallow urchin diving but it’s diving with a purpose and that’s what keeps me going.
The second guy might be a little more motivated but still his passion is not there enough for me. He owns his gear but depends on people to do everything for him. Why hasn’t he seeked out diving on his own and looked at dive clubs to join or gone on trips? I did when I first got certified, I couldn’t get enough!
What ab diver gets certified locally then never dives locally after they get certified? Then he goes to Hawaii for dives 5-8 and doesn’t take his own top notch gear? Who here wouldn’t take their own brand new gear?
Maybe it’s just a case of massive procrastination but I can think of many other things to procrastinate over besides diving. I would be the type to play hookey on the things I’m supposed to be doing TO GO diving!
So I’m not convinced these two guys deserve my time and attention in this matter. I’m just not seeing enough motivation from either of them. Looking at their track records I don’t think they take diving seriously enough. I think they are dabblers not real divers.
What I’ll tell them if they hit me up again is to go to a shop and take a refresher with an instructor. Once they do that then they can hit me up. If they proceed with that advice then I’ll have an inkling that they are serious.
Yes.
I was taught that if you present yourself in any way as someone who could be depended upon during the dive, then you could be considered as acting as a professional and be subject to liability in case of an accident. That was the point of my earlier post. If you just present yourself as a diving companion, you should be OK in case of an accident.
Except in Malta. In Malta, if you are on the same island as the deceased, then it is your fault.
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Yeah and if they see you with a tow ball or a trailer suddenly you're the local mover
and if they see you with a hammer or a saw they want you to build a shed for them
to put the stuff you moved in
and whilst you are here can you also build me a nice house to put next to the shed
for all the dive gear you bring
"About that pool?"
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