Is dive certification really necessary?

[boulderjohn]

I told my girlfriend that she should get her AOW when she needs to. So far nobody has told her she can't do a dive because she is only OW.

I guess it's time to dust off this classic.

 

[Saboteur]

I guess it's time to dust off this classic.

Hilarious!...

 

[KevinNM]

In other extreme sports (rock climbing, skiing, riding mountain bikes down canyon walls, flight suits, whatever), the participant is on his or her own to do the activity and make judgments about the difficulty relative to ability. If I go skiing, the ski map warns me that certain trails are double black diamonds, but it's my decision if I think I am ready for that, and it's all on me if I am not. With most diving, a professional operation is involved, and there is a potential for a lawsuit if they allow you to do a dive for which you are not prepared.

I flew my wingsuit into trees… and woke up in a hospital!
...
What’s your honest assessment of your qualifications, having now been in skydiving for 4 years, BASE for 2 years, 80 slider-off jumps, 40 tracking jumps, and only 70 WB jumps prior to Chamonix? Do you think your experience qualifies you for flying technical proximity lines at Brevent and Aiguille du Midi?

Absolutely not. But here’s what I was thinking. I figured I could fly the lines best by first flying them ‘not so deep.’ Then I’d work my way up [down?] by flying them a little more aggressively as I got more and more comfortable with each one. With this method, I thought I could learn how I needed to fly them.

At the time though, you did feel qualified and prepared to show up to Chamonix by yourself. So many other jumpers are in the exact situation as you. Can you expand on how you convinced yourself you were ‘good to go’ on your first Chamonix trip?

My friends had introduced me to the exit and start logistics of both Brevent and Midi. I had already flown similar exit profiles and my exit and start performance history was solid. As long as my starts continued to be good, I wasn’t worried. But, I also continued to fly lines more and more aggressively as I got comfortable with them.

My personal recommendation is to hold EXPERT status in 1) Skydiving, 2) Basejumping, and 3) Wingsuit Skydiving, prior to your first WS basejump. How would you rate yourself in these 3 categories when you started WS BASE?

Skydiving: I wouldn’t have considered myself an expert skydiver when I started WS BASE. I was lacking in certain all-around skills, such as free flying.

Basejumping: I wouldn’t have considered myself an expert here, either. I lacked certain disciplines, such as aerials. However, I did feel I knew enough about exit safety, equipment, and obstacle avoidance to WS BASE jump.

Wingsuit Skydiving: This area is actually the closest I felt to an expert category prior to starting WS BASE, even though I’m still not there yet. At the time, while I did feel experienced, I didn’t feel like an expert because of 1) poor performance in my ‘big suits’ and 2) the lack of comparison to people who flew similar suits to me in my area.

Wingsuit BASE was your goal before your very first skydive. You currently have around 550 wingsuit skydives, which is a decent amount of practice time. Yet, you ultimately stalled into the trees by not flying your suit fast enough. Do you think this stemmed from a lack of WS BASE academic training, or rather a lack of appropriate skills training?

Both, actually…

Good friends of yours were concerned about a slow flight you had only a week prior in Walenstadt… slow, at least when compared to them. With your exit weight of about 220lbs, you’re also considerably heavier. By definition, you should be flying faster than them just to maintain the same relative stall margin. Taking this all into account, what was your honest assessment of your speed capabilities when they talked to you about flying too slow?

I just brushed off their small comment about speed because they didn’t address it like it was a big issue. That flight itself didn’t feel different from my previous flights elsewhere. I wouldn’t say I was lying to myself, but I honestly thought my WS BASE performance was good enough. I knew I was slower than some people, and honestly tried to keep that in mind when considering new jumps or lines. I might not have been the best, or better than anyone, but I definitely felt good enough to fly most lines. I now realize I was getting complacent really fast. Although I had been keeping a margin for error, once I got to an advanced place like Chamonix, the margin for error dropped considerably without me fully realizing it. I thought I was good enough, fast enough, and knew what I was doing… I let myself get complacent and too comfortable flying slow. It turned out to kill me, except that I lived.

Throughout your jumping career, has anyone ever pulled you aside and cautioned you to slow down and pace yourself?

Yeah, actually there was one friend who did exactly that. He didn’t basejump though, so I didn’t really give his advice much consideration. I thought I knew what I needed to train to, and I thought I was progressing well within my means.

 

[CycleCat]

I guess it's time to dust off this classic.

I'm new here! First time I've seen it!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I was a free diver for years before I did any scuba diving.
By the time I got certified I had already learned about exposure protection and what happens to your suit the deeper you go. I learned about weighting, finning techniques, body positioning for maximum slipstream through the water. Plus just being in the ocean I knew what to expect as far as the power of the surf, currents, rips, tides, rocky hazards, beach entry exits, how to clear a mask underwater, how to equalize, proper snorkel use, breathing up, etc. none of this was through a class or instructor, all this was from reading Terry Maas books and diving with friends who were mentors.
By the time I decided to get certified, the most critical thing I learned IMO were the gas laws, dive tables and how they worked, and about the SCUBA and how it worked.
Other than that I already had experience from skin diving.
I was lucky that I had a really good instructor who was ex Navy and he also made a living doing TV commercials as a safety and set up diver. The dude lived the life.
I am still convinced that most of my understanding of the material was from reading and studying the material. I am a person who has an extensive library of different subject matter that I can reference periodically as needed.
When we got into the class room it was more of a knowledge review with the instructor going over stuff.

However, looking back I am a little disappointed that the norm back then was to plant divers on their knees and overweight them to do their ocean dives to make sure they would sink.

There was a comment earlier about forgetting stuff as years go by. I’m trying to figure out what I may have forgotten?
I still remember the gas laws clear as day. I still remember the tables inside and out even though things have gone to computers, tables are still engrained. I still know how to efficiently fin through the water, I still know how to breathe through my regulator, I can remove a mask and clear it properly if needed, and my comfort level in the water is as good as ever.
What did I forget?

It is my opinion that scuba diving has become way too certification oriented and not enough proven skill oriented. Certifications don’t necessarily equal skills. Part of this is the money making machine aspect, it’s big business. I also think the whole “life support” scare tactic and subsequent schooling/ certification racket is a little over the top. I can’t help but wonder how much of it is financially motivated?

 

[James79]

Problem as I see it is there is no”chain of evidence” that a individual actually knows what they are doing. In a actual certification course there are quizzes, exams, skill development sessions that are all documented. All fun and games until someone gets hurt and whoever issued a certification gets sued and loses all assets they own.

That, I think, is what's getting lost in translation. I see value in the training/practice being self study, and paying for a single "Check Dive" for the certification. A checkdive where all skills are demonstrated, and a written or oral evaluation is given to verify the academic piece. That check dive and evaluation is the "chain of evidence" that they know the skills and academics, independent of where the practice and study occurred.

Respectfully,

James

 

[James79]

Maybe there needs to be a process where dive candidates can "challenge" the certification criteria. I manage a ski resort in New Mexico and all our ski patrol is OEC (Outdoor Emergency Care) certified. The OEC course is many weekends, intensive and expensive. We often have highly skilled applicants who are not OEC certified but they are EMTs, Army medics, etc. They are allowed to pay a small fee to take the OEC test and if they pass, they are OEC certified.

Similarly, dive candidates could take the written test and demonstrate basic skills necessary and be certified.

This is precisely what I got out of Eric's OP.

 

[Dubious]

in other extreme sports (rock climbing, skiing, riding mountain bikes down canyon walls, flight suits, whatever), the participant is on his or her own to do the activity and make judgments about the difficulty relative to ability.

I think this is kind of my point. Other extreme sports rely on the individual to know their limits or face the consequences whereas I think there may be a false sense of dive ability when someone holds a card saying they have been trained, even if it has been many years since their last dive.

I used to be an avid cyclist, both mountain biking and on the road. I even had some formal coaching and had my collegiate license. Trail ratings were key for some runs but even for some of the more technical trails, our club would hit green trails for warm-up. I know skiers who do the same. They don't just hit the black diamond run without warming up or being well into their ski season.

I think a hybrid model would be more beneficial to the sport and maybe even the environment. I think that those agencies that do requrie so many dives to keep their cert active are on the right track, but the question then is what happens to the vacationing diver who may only get out one or two weeks a year?

I don't really know the answer to any of this but I think this a good discussion.

 

[JamesBon92007]

Lots of people without certifications get tanks filled. Mobile airbrush artists, nail salons, hobbyists using portable compressed air, paint ballers,.

I wondered how paintballers got their tanks filled. So, if you simply say it's for paintball they will fill it and if for scuba they won't, without a c-card?

 

[Akimbo]

If @Akimbo trained me to dive, I wouldn't give a crap about having a c-card.

Very flattering, but I doubt it would get you aboard a dive charter boat or your tank filled. Come to think of it, you would probably get run out of your LDS after explaining that free-ascents from 50 meters was part of your basic Scuba training.

I had to get some c-cards from friends after being certified as a US Navy sat diver, setting a saturation depth record with another sailor, and being part of the first team to saturate on the Doria. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.

@Eric Sedletzky makes some interesting points. Looking back at the pioneers of Scuba diving in the US like Bev Morgan and Connie Limbaugh makes you realize that you can be self taught if you are adequately motivated. Just ask @Sam Miller III what it was like when a Frenchman started selling Aqua Lungs from his sporting goods store in LA — which was the only "dive shop" in North America at the time.