Info Is DAN Insurance worthwhile?

[L13]

they are not cave diving instructor. i assume there is different style of person out there and different diver that goes along. From a technical and safety perspective both are accomplish diver. The community as you refer gather all kind of people and mentality.

But presumably (from the content of their video's) dive professionals are willing to go along with them. Which is what lead me to wonder if they are in fact more "professional" in real life.

If what I see in the videos is considered "technical" and "safety" accomplished in the community, then I start to question the judgement of the community.

 

[Baker_Dive]

But presumably (from the content of their video's) dive professionals are willing to go along with them. Which is what lead me to wonder if they are in fact more "professional" in real life.

If what I see in the videos is considered "technical" and "safety" accomplished in the community, then I start to question the judgement of the community.

Specific example of what you deem unsafe?

 

[Tracy]

Deleted

It was just a question. A legitimate one. What is that based on?
They are newer divers. Newer cave divers.
Both are clearly diving beyond their skills as both have had substantial near misses that neither finds personal fault with.

I'm not at all saying I don't/haven't done incredibly stupid things in diving that have resulted in near misses. But I have at least looked at the cause and changed something to try and prevent it happening again.
I don't see that with them.

 

[cerich]

Are the YouTube videos representative of what they are really like? Or is it just a Youtube persona?

I'm very new to cave diving, but I find their public persona are a little scary, and would be nervous getting instruction from someone that thought it wasn't. I also don't think those persona's are the best to be the face of cave (and CCR) diving to the public. But maybe I'm just naive and that is what the community really is.

well, that is a good question.

yeah, to a degree their youtube persona amplifies their persona.


I haven't taught Woody or Gus any courses. I have been around when they are doing courses, around when they are fun diving and seen them as they have developed their technical/cave diving over the last few years. They have been drinking from a fire hose and doing a good job, but it's still a fire hose. They dive a LOT however, and you can't judge their experience in tech/cave by the calendar only and were really experienced recreational divers before they went down the tech road. In my view, they have a really good attitude around safety and learning. They are very good in the water, and I have seen their skills and knowledge progress and impressed by their capacity to learn, their willingness to be self reflective to get better always and sometimes a little worried that their enthusiasm and some company they keep will encourage them to push their limits a bit too hard. I think they have been pretty open on their journey that they are learning as well, and have the courage to put out in public some of the "learning experiences" along the way that many have but wouldn't be so willing. From a "Just Culture" POV, that's a good thing.


The community is filled with all kinds of people with different outlooks, approaches, personality, etc. Just like every community. They connect with some people, and don't with others. That's normal as well. I would caution anyone on their own journey to try and advance in cave/tech as fast as them unless they had significant dive experience behind them and had significant time to get the time in the water and do the work while gaining experience. As an instructor, cave instructor and cave instructor evaluator, a student progressing at that rate would still concern me, and I would try (and sometimes have been able to, sometimes not) to slow things down and get more time in water/dives at each level progressively.


That all said, ultimately, the type of diving they are doing comes with significantly higher risk than recreational diving and all of us that pursue that type of diving have to make their own call on what their risk tolerance is.

I would let either Woody or Gus teach my teen aged kid any recreational dive course with confidence.

 

[Baker_Dive]

It was just a question. A legitimate one. What is that based on?
They are newer divers. Newer cave divers.
Both are clearly diving beyond their skills as both have had substantial near misses that neither finds personal fault with.

I'm not at all saying I don't/haven't done incredibly stupid things in diving that have resulted in near misses. But I have at least looked at the cause and changed something to try and prevent it happening again.
I don't see that with them.

I disagree. If you are referring to Gus’s near miss, he did a whole video about how he ****** up and what he will do to prevent this error from occurring in the future.

You can make the argument he shouldn’t have been included on the dive, but he was, and he made a mistake. The mistake could have killed him. He could have buried this mistake and not said a word to anyone that he was narced outta his mind on the wrong gas blend at 200 feet or so. He didn’t hide it, and put himself out there for all the criticism. I admire that.

What is woodys big mistake? If you are talking about this incident, I believe it’s way too early to know if Woody made mistakes or if it was just his time to get DCS. His only possible reasoning he put forth was dehydration. Because he didn’t have to pee after the dive.

If there are other incidents please elaborate.

 

[Boarderguy]

What is woodys big mistake?

3 hour dive dehydrated because he didn't wear a diaper or condom catheters. Once you go down the route of diving with heavy deco then you need to plan for normal bodily function without sacrificing your health. Dehydration for the sake of not peeing is a stupid choice. Even a midly knowledgeable rec diver knows that.

Edit: add to that the air diluent. I'm not a ccr diver and primarily dive air deep... I also don't do long hangs due to back gas limitations.

 

[cerich]

What is woodys big mistake? If you are talking about this incident, I believe it’s way too early to know if Woody made mistakes or if it was just his time to get DCS. His only possible reasoning he put forth was dehydration. Because he didn’t have to pee after the dive.

I think it's fair to state that Woody not having hooked up to a pee valve was a mistake. Even if he thought he was hydrated and could hold it, it was mistake. Holding a full bladder while diving can cause the normal possible problems but worse because of the pressure

 

[Tracy]

I disagree. If you are referring to Gus’s near miss, he did a whole video about how he ****** up and what he will do to prevent this error from occurring in the future.

You can make the argument he shouldn’t have been included on the dive, but he was, and he made a mistake. The mistake could have killed him. He could have buried this mistake and not said a word to anyone that he was narced outta his mind on the wrong gas blend at 200 feet or so. He didn’t hide it, and put himself out there for all the criticism. I admire that.

What is woodys big mistake? If you are talking about this incident, I believe it’s way too early to know if Woody made mistakes or if it was just his time to get DCS. His only possible reasoning he put forth was dehydration. Because he didn’t have to pee after the dive.

If there are other incidents please elaborate.

It wasn't that he didn't admit mistake. I think he missed what the mistake was.
Hooking into the wrong gas wasn't the big mistake. Bringing the wrong gas on the dive supersedes it.
The dive they just did in Abaco, air as a diluent on a 40M working dive is a mistake. The other mistakes after it are just consequences.

 

[acxc]

An hour and a half of my life that I'll never get back, but I made it through the video. Probably biased, but I think it is extremely difficult to call DAN insurance worthless in this case, or any other. It seems that they:

- Communicated and provided a treatment option.
- Reimbursed / will reimburse him for out of pocket expenses and treatment he arranged on his own, which is exactly what is expected of a supplementary insurance policy.
- Have followed up with him to sort out what could have been done differently and appear to be doing so with full transparency.

Maybe things didn't happen as immediate as they should, but really, what more can he ask for??

I can't remember off the top of my head what DAN membership and insurance costs each year, but I have to imagine that this guy has probably eaten a more expensive steak at some point in his life.

FWIW I had an incident last year that required I contact DAN for advice, to arrange a recompression treatment, and use their insurance. Fortunately I was very local, but without DAN I would literally and financially be very broke right now. The services they provide are worth it a thousand times over.

 

[noserider]

He became the exact person his react videos dissect and his entourage was there with him.

It is fairly normal to pay for medical care first and claim later, or at least put down a card as deposit. I have done it in Kenya, Japan, India, Thailand and Indonesia over the years, why is it a shock that DAN insurance requires this.

I think a dissect video on this would be hilarious, we could really rip them apart