Is AOW a required prerequisite to do a Divemaster?

[skippy311]

Cmas is a little different= 1 star, 2 star, 3 star...

 

[Zef]

Imagine this situation:

A guy who has been diving regularly walks into your divecenter. He has an open water card and a nitrox card. His logbook shows dozens of dives below 18m/60ft, many of those with EAN32 to 30m and a couple of dives with EAN28 to wrecks at 40m/130ft.

He wants to sign up for tomorrow's dive to a wreck at 35m deep.
You stick to the rules (mentioned and defended before in this thread), so you say that he can look at the wreck from 18m/60ft deep max.
And to add insult to injury, the buddy of this guy, who has the same impressive logbook, shows his advanced open water card but does not have a deep diver card. So you tell that guy he can join but has to look at the wreck from 30m deep max.

The manager of the divecenter listens to your conversation. What might happen?
A. He will overrule you, with the argument that experience beats certification.
B. He'll tell you to find another divecenter, since you've been turning any diver with a Deep certification away.
C. A and B
D. He'll back your story and sells them one AOW course plus two Deep Specialty courses.

Your scenario describes diving with a dive operation. The policies they put in place are a mix of arbitrary rules they self-impose and things imposed on them by their insurance provider.

There is no doubt that many dive ops will adhere to the standards they list...which are usually reflective of the training standards/limits of training/certification agency.

That is find, but none of that matters outside of formal training and/or diving with a dive op.

-Z

 

[wstorms]

Imagine this situation:

A guy who has been diving regularly walks into your divecenter. He has an open water card and a nitrox card. His logbook shows dozens of dives below 18m/60ft, many of those with EAN32 to 30m and a couple of dives with EAN28 to wrecks at 40m/130ft.

He wants to sign up for tomorrow's dive to a wreck at 35m deep.
You stick to the rules (mentioned and defended before in this thread), so you say that he can look at the wreck from 18m/60ft deep max.
And to add insult to injury, the buddy of this guy, who has the same impressive logbook, shows his advanced open water card but does not have a deep diver card. So you tell that guy he can join but has to look at the wreck from 30m deep max.

The manager of the divecenter listens to your conversation. What might happen?
A. He will overrule you, with the argument that experience beats certification.
B. He'll tell you to find another divecenter, since you've been turning any diver with a Deep certification away.
C. A and B
D. He'll back your story and sells them one AOW course plus two Deep Specialty courses.

E. You offer them a completely different dive, max 18 meter for the next day, and start AOWD + deep there.

Maybe I have been lucky, maybe I only worked where D / E would be the default option without a doubt. I wouldn't want it any other way. If the manager would overrule me I would be looking for a new manager.

In any case, the divers would not be on the wreck at 35 meters the next day, since the required training takes more time than that.
I do understand that working like that is potentially bad for business in the short term. I do understand it is not nice for the divers. But how would it be good judgement on my part if I would allow divers I do not know to go on a deep dive without them having the proper training?

 

[wstorms]

No one is suggesting that one do this on their own, but instead dive with people who are more experienced or to dive with another and slowly and incrementally gain experience in a well thought out, objective driven manner....all dives should have an objective.

I meant on their own as in with another buddy, not solo. Who is this more experienced buddy? Somebody who has 10 dives more? 100? More advanced training? Or would you say it doesn't matter to much as long as you stay reasonably close to what you have learned, and respect that particular envelop? (that is something I do agree with)

Because experience is not gained in a vacuum. And formal training in the context of client paid/instructor led is not always necessary.

There is not much difference between diving at 18m and diving at 22m....the major differences being the slightly increased air consumption 5 meters deeper than 18m and the difference in no-deco time for that depth. The depth, air consumption issue, and no-deco time should be discussed during the dive brief, and more attention paid to checking air pressure and dive time/no-deco time during the dive to drive home the point. Once a couple of dives are made to in this fashion the open water diver has the requisite experience to plan and execute dives to that depth. Rinse and repeat for most objectives within the scope of reacreational diving.

And there isn't much difference between 22m and 25. 25 is close to 27, next stop 30 / 40 /50 /60 / whatever meter. Where does it become too much? Does the more experienced buddy (who has a whopping 10 dives more!) know the differences and is it likely he / she will brief that?
This is exactly normalization of deviation.
Can divers build experience without a professional? Most certainly! If an OWD did not get below 12 meter during training, he / she is more than welcome (this actually is encouraged!) to slowly expand their experience but with a max of 18 meter. After that it is time for more formal training before making the next little steps.

 

[boulderjohn]

Well, we clearly have some difference in opinion, and I will quickly summarize.

• Dive operations around the world allow and lead OW divers to dive below 60 feet, but some will have additional requirements for deeper dives; I have never heard of any dive operation anywhere in the world that limits OW certified divers to 60 feet--if someone knows of one, it would be good to name it.
• In contrast, some people say they would not work as dive guides for such an operation, which means they would not work for any dive operator.
• Some instructors look at the students they train and certify and say with confidence that these people have the ability to dive to a reasonable depth below their certification as they gain experience, using sound judgment as they do.
• In contrast, some instructors look at the students they train and certify and say with equal confidence that these people do not have the ability to dive to a reasonable depth below their certification to gain experience, even on a dive led by a DM, and they will probably not use sound judgment if they were to do so.

 

[Miyaru]

E. You offer them a completely different dive, max 18 meter for the next day, and start AOWD + deep there.
...

There's no answer E.
However there is a diver with quite some experience in deep diving, and you're going to teach him Advanced Open Water.

Can I assist?

 

[Zef]

Or would you say it doesn't matter to much as long as you stay reasonably close to what you have learned, and respect that particular envelop? (that is something I do agree with)

I believe this is what the folks on the side of the argument I am on have been saying all along.

And there isn't much difference between 22m and 25. 25 is close to 27, next stop 30 / 40 /50 /60 / whatever meter. Where does it become too much?

I agree, there is not much difference between the depths you mentioned so, it becomes too much when you as an individual decides it is too much. The expectation is that as an adult you are exercising good judgement...good judgement is based on factors such as your overall and specific knowledge of the activity you are engaging in, your understanding of the risk factors and how they affect you as an individual and those in your group, along with what your plan is for the dive you are about to embark on compared to any previous dives you have done. If there is a significant delta between the dive being planned and the last one for instance, then perhaps a re-evaluation is necessary to reduce that gap.

For most training agencies, the accepted limit for recreational scuba diving is 40meters. There are a few that have that limit set at 50meters, but 40 meters is the prevailing limit. Discussing the accepted recreational depth limit is beyond the scope of this thread and continually reinjecting it into the discussion is disingenuous.

Does the more experienced buddy (who has a whopping 10 dives more!) know the differences and is it likely he/she will brief that?
This is exactly normalization of deviation.
Can divers build experience without a professional? Most certainly! If an OWD did not get below 12 meter during training, he / she is more than welcome (this actually is encouraged!) to slowly expand their experience but with a max of 18 meter. After that it is time for more formal training before making the next little steps

You seem fixated on setting a max based on a standard that does not exist outside the training environment.

In your example, you state it is ok for one to go past the depth they trained at (12 meters) as long as they don't go below 18 meters....But there is no standard outside of official training scenarios where 18 meters is considered a max....with the exception of dive operations that, as discussed already in this thread, may impose a limit based on their insurance requirements or any number of arbitrary factors.

I don't understand how you can justify that it is ok for someone to apply their judgment to increase their depth from 12 meters to 18 meters but not beyond that. The only reason I can think of is that you are zealously fixated on 18 meters as a depth standard for OW divers.

If you are truly fixated that 18 meters is an absolute limit outside of official training scenarios for OW divers, despite that even agencies such as PADI state and/or imply otherwise, and if you are not willing to appreciate that your belief is not based in fact, then there is not much to discuss from a rational standpoint.

Facts have been presented to you by multiple participants in this thread...You have chosen to ignore them in favor of your beliefs. That is fine, but it undermines rational discourse and results in the circular discussion that has ensued in this thread.

-Z

 

[Zef]

E. You offer them a completely different dive, max 18 meter for the next day, and start AOWD + deep there.

Maybe I have been lucky, maybe I only worked where D / E would be the default option without a doubt. I wouldn't want it any other way. If the manager would overrule me I would be looking for a new manager.

In any case, the divers would not be on the wreck at 35 meters the next day, since the required training takes more time than that.
I do understand that working like that is potentially bad for business in the short term. I do understand it is not nice for the divers. But how would it be good judgement on my part if I would allow divers I do not know to go on a deep dive without them having the proper training?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that on the first dive you do with someone as their DM/guide, that you take them down to 35m...

....even if one has a deep diver cert to whatever depth, it would not be prudent to do that as a first dive without any skill evaluation. As a DM, if I am getting in the water with someone, it is my job/my duty to evaluate their skill set regardless of what credentials they hold, to ensure their skills are suitable for the dive we are going to do.

That evaluation consists of a discussion about their experience, perhaps a check of their dive log, and observations made both outside and inside the water.

-Z

 

[lowflyer]

On one of my dives to the Belize Blue Hole there was a family group of about six divers staying at the same resort as I was. Some of them had just done AOW, but some had just done OW cert at the resort. All went down to the 130 foot depth at the Blue Hole with one instructor. That's how ridiculous it can get.

 

[TMHeimer]

A couple of pages back it was discussed how new OW divers can increase their depth and other limits on their own. We know PADI's OW course certifies you to dive to a recommended limit of 60' in conditions similar to what you were trained in (not word for word). So it was asked-- I was trained in a calm lake, so how do I approach rough ocean diving?
Yes, you can take further training (AOW, etc.), or dive with a pro or experienced diver to gradually increase depth/situations.
No exact guidelines on this, nor can their be. The only guideline is really do logical, not dumb things.

I applaud PADI for adding a Deep dive (component?) to the requirements of completing the DM course. The S & R thing that was added is probably good too. I always wondered how DMs who didn't have Deep Cert. could lead dives below 100' to 130'. I am curious about how the Deep training now in the DM course differs from the Deep course itself.