Is a Back Plate w/ Wing really cheaper?

[AngloFish]

OK a few fallacies with your post. The bp/w system is not just for people who only want to go to doubles and side mount (obviously since side mount is not done with a backpack and wing but a side mount harness, similar webbing wise and rear inflation but that's where the similarities end).
The bp/w is really great for drysuits or traveling as it's light and packs down very well. It's also less buoyant not having all that extra padding so as a newer diver it's a nice simple way to shave some lead.
Chest constriction is a non factor as well, jacket style BCs wrap around you and then inflate giving you a slight squeeze. The plate harness does not cover your chest and feels much more free.
Orientation in the water is much nicer and allows newer divers to get a feel for proper trim much more easily, at least it worked that way for me way back when. I'm pretty sure I could faintly hear angels singing whilst diving my bp/w for the first time.
Next is price, man those are some expensive rigs... I'll let you in on a little secret, build your own. I just had to redo my entire harness, granted I already own the plate but it's an old OMS al plate that cost me $70 new.
So I needed new webbing and all the clips/d-rings etc which includes:
13 ft of webbing for the harness
5 ft for the crotch strap
5 d-rings
5 of those rectangular holder dealies I'm forgetting the name of at the moment.
4-5 bike tire inner tubes that can be had for free from any bike shop.

Total cost to make the harness is about $40.
Plus 70 for the plate and you have a complete hogarthian bp/w for $110 Canadian give or take.
My last harness was still going strong but after 10 years of service it was looking pretty ragged and I wanted to try softer material.
Anyway hope that helps to clear some things up, running your own harness sounds rough but a few youtube videos and you should be able to do it no problem.

For a long time when a new diver asks questions and advice for new BC purchase within a few responses someone will eventually throw out that a back plate with wing set up is the best and most affordable way to start. I will agree that if a diver plans to dive double tanks or use side mount that a back plate wing is the only way to go. I will also agree that for customization purposes you can change from cold water to warm water wings and not have to purchase two different BC's. And I used to assume that when someone said that is was a less expensive way to start purchasing gear until I started looking at the cost of the individual components.

Looking at several websites including the Halcyon website, Scuba.com, Leisurepro, and Scubatoys (the last three being actual online sites I have purchased gear) I found that when you add up the components it can get quite expensive. I found a harness system for $60, a pack plate for about $71 but most were at least $100 or more, and a wing for $300. All total it came to about $431. The average cost I would say for a back plate with wing would more likely run around $580 which would be $130 for the harness, $150 for the back plate, and $300 for the wing. And then I would also have to use a weight belt.

I found an Aqualung Zuma travel BC on sale for $299. I also found a Dive Rite travel back plate with harness on sale for $399. So the back plate with wing set up was still $100 more than an off the self back inflate BC.

My own Zeagle Stiletto back inflate BC cost $500 after a discount from my LDS. That would still be less than the $580 figure I calculated earlier.

So am I missing something? Is a back plate with wing that much less expensive than a regular BC? And just for sake of discussion, the posts here in the New Diver section are divers either finishing their basic OW course or about to start their OW course. They are still a long way from getting enough experience and skills to really utilize the side mount and doubles flexibility of the back plate system.

 

[doctormike]

Many of the people who ask which BC to get - and who have already dismissed the idea of a BP/W - are warm water recreational divers who don't live in the Caribbean. For these folks, the difference in price between a basic BP/W and a basic jacket BCD are trivial compared to the overall cost of diving (travel, hotel, dive boats, etc...)

We don't recommend a BP/W because it's cheaper. It's about the same price, comparing apples to apples. Yes, you can find VERY cheap jacket BCs which might be at $100 less than a basic BP/W but so what? If you are buying your own scuba gear and planning on dive travel, you should at least consider what many feel is a better solution, and not write it off ahead of time because you can get a rock bottom BCD from LeisurePro for a few bucks less. Save the money on regulators - if you aren't diving in cold water, any modern reg will work fine. But a well fit BP/W can really make your diving more enjoyable.

 

[AngloFish]

D'oh forgot the wing! Just checked scubatoys and they are selling HOG 32lb single wings for 149.99. Pretty sweet. So all told you're looking at $260 for a really nice bp/w setup on the low end.

 

[mikeb21072]

Bob,

Why a back inflate, it was all based on the way it fit. The Dimension is the most comfortable and adjustable harness system I have used. I started out with a AquaLung Pro LT jacket, and I never felt comfortable with the squeeze. Also, until I starting diving in Pompano instead of the Keys, I never saw or heard anyone talking about the benefits of a BP/W setup. When I bought my first BC, trying a rebreather or a tec style setup was not even considered to be a possibility,
Even now, just researching the differences in the wings and whether to buy a SS or alum backplate; I would have never thought about that just out of OW, not to mention how to try and trim out the weight balance. I would have needed a mentor or a good dive club for assistance, and since I do not dive locally, it was not a possibility. The West Coast may have been completely different experience, but that was my take in Maryland. My local diving consists of getting on a 2 hour flight, so the usual dive shop setup was all I was exposed to until about a year ago.
I enjoy diving Key Largo or Pompano either shallow or deep, but I also enjoy muck diving at the Blue Heron Bridge and seeing a BP/W for 12 feet of water is definitely not routine.
My wife and I enjoy diving but she is a photo bug and I film with a GoPro, that explains my interest in rebreathers. I am not looking to do 100 m dives, just more bottom time and I like the technology.
Do I wish I would have bought a BP/W, not really, my back inflate works for now but if I ever buy another, BP/W without any hesitation.

Mike

 

[freewillie]

Depends on what you buy. My old, but quite useable, jacket that cost less is hanging in the dive locker and the BP/W's that I've put togather gets used. Several years back I paid $150 for a plate, 6# sta, webbing and hardware. The big money was for the Oxycheq wing at $320. After that I picked up a Freedom Plate from Eric, and later a 50# DiveRite doubles wing on close out for $150.

This week I saw a harness and plate in a shop for $89 in aluminum and $150 in stainless, brand new. The wings will still set you back a pretty penny.

As for buying one, a new diver is going tech it is a no brainer, a rec diver should try one out to see if they like how they dive, in the long run they may save money. My question would be why a BackInflate instead of BP/W?



Bob
-------------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

Because a back inflate gives you very similar buoyancy characteristics. I noticed much better fit, better trim, and more stability in the water on my first dive with back inflate.

As for the difference between standard BC and back plate I was asking about back inflate BC compare to back plate/wing set up, not jacket BC. I agree jackets are not as comfortable compared to putting the bladder or wing in the back. I was questioning the advantage of the back plate/wing system over a standard back inflate BC.

Previous arguments have been cost but they seem to be very close either way. My Zeagle Stiletto weighs 7 lbs. and is compact and light enough for travel. My daughter's Aeris travel lite is even lighter and is another back inflate although is essentially a plastic back plate with wing. The other advantage is both of our BC's have a cummerbund around the waist for comfort and fit. Personally I like the comfort and fit the cummerbund provides compared to some of the rental BC's I've used with simple straps or harness.

So so back inflate with cummerbund for fit and comfort. Hey, I'm just a simple vacation diver these days.

 

[tbone1004]

advantage to bp/w's over back inflates is generally build quality, modularity, resale value, and it's just a better design.

you discussed weight.
Dive Rite Travel wing, 2.2lbs
Harness-all about 1.5lbs for basic harness
aluminum/kydex plates about 1.5-2lbs
Cam bands-plastic ones are about 1lb for the pair

Total rig weight, somewhere in the 7lb ish range, lighter than stiletto.

Build quality, Zeagle does pretty good here, but still has a lot of gimicky pull straps for adjustment and the rigs have always felt kind of cheap to me. Lots of polyester cloth for straps and padding type stuff. If I want a "comfy" harness, I sacrifice a bit of weight and move to the Transplate, it's 2.5lbs so puts it a smidge higher than the Zeagle in weight but by less than half a pound. Also a much more comfortable harness. You mention cummerbund, why do you need it? What does it do for you? with a properly fitted harness, the waist strap doesn't have to be that tight....

Price, full DSS Kydex rig, $480, Stiletto $600 currently on a few sites. Same price if you go with the Transplate harness which are about $120 or so msrp. Resale, if you decide to change rigs, they both resell at around $300 or so, the DSS will go the day you list it, the Stiletto will take a while, at least according to the most recent listings in the marketplace. Now, Stiletto comes with two zippered waist pockets for "stuff", and the ripcord system. You can get trim weight pockets from DGX for $10 each if you need them, and you're better off with a thigh pocket or the dive shorts if you actually need to carry stuff. Carrying things in waist pockets is a pain, plus you shouldn't be carrying all that much to begin with....

Fit, if you're nonstandard sizes, DSS offers a bunch of different length and width plates, so you can get close there and the beauty of the harness system is that it will do the rest for you. No need to futz with cinching and quick releases and all of that nonsense, it's quick in, quick out, more comfortable in the water, and not that bad at the surface....

So yes, price wise they are cheaper, quality wise they are better, and feature wise they have all you need and nothing you don't.

 

[doctormike]

you're better off with a thigh pocket or the dive shorts if you actually need to carry stuff. Carrying things in waist pockets is a pain, plus you shouldn't be carrying all that much to begin with....
.

Exactly. When you are walking around topside, do you carry your wallet and keys in pants pockets or shirt pockets?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RJP]

But he only asked one question. The answer is no, it is not cheaper. It may be a "bargain" in our minds, but the actual retail price is not lower.

But there are expensive BCDs that cost more than value-priced BP/W. (Hell, there are some that cost more than high-end BP/W.)

Ultimately, however, if the OP got into diving with the objective of saving as much money as possible he/she may have chosen the wrong hobby.

---------- Post added May 1st, 2015 at 08:34 AM ----------

The other advantage is both of our BC's have a cummerbund around the waist for comfort and fit. Personally I like the comfort and fit the cummerbund provides compared to some of the rental BC's I've used with simple straps or harness.

So so back inflate with cummerbund for fit and comfort. Hey, I'm just a simple vacation diver these days.

The fact that a cummerbund makes your rig more comfortable than crappy rental BCDs is meaningless if you're trying to compare your BCD to a BP/W.


Have you tried a BP/W? That's really the only way to understand the difference.

To me the biggest benefits for a recreational diver are:
- Better buoyancy/trim characteristics
- Infinitely adjustable
- Reduced clutter/drag/danglies (compared to "average" BCD)
- Future proof

I think all of those things are worth the few dollars difference for a new diver looking to buy their own gear.

For a recreational diver who already owns a BCD the calculus is different and really rests upon their level of satisfaction with current BCD for their current diving, anticipated change in recreational diving, and tech aspirations. If you're satisfied with your current BCD, see no changes in the type of recreational diving you do, and have no tech aspirations... this is kind of a silly thread.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

But there are expensive BCDs that cost more than value-priced BP/W. (Hell, there are some that cost more than high-end BP/W.)

Ultimately, however, if the OP got into diving with the objective of saving as much money as possible he/she may have chosen the wrong hobby.

I have an opinion that you can buy used to save money and you do not need top of the line but you need functional. The OP and everyone reading these forums generally thinks from their own perspective - and it is hard not to inject some experience in the discussions when replying. Since I do not where and how the OP will be using the equipment - I can only give my perspective which is local and native to me and may be totally off base with the OP's planned use.

That said - if money were no object this discussion would be moot - but it always comes down to money.
How long is the OP going to use the equipment before they reconsider another purchase? For me - I was raised to buy what you can afford and wear it out. If I get a tear or something breaks, I fix it - I don't go out and buy another BC or BP/W - but I know people that do. Neither approach is wrong - in the shallow diving that I mostly do (under 100 feet) - I have not had an issue with old equipment that I have worked on. That said as I get older I do want some comfort that things will work. But a non-functioning BCD or BP/W should not kill me - a regulator failure without redundancy might and that is where I chose to spend my money. I spend the money where I think it does the most good - otherwise I tend to not worry about matching my outfit and I am not looking to go technical - pure recreational diving for me. I look for function for the next 5 to 10 years in the framework that I have planned and I spend accordingly.

 

[doctormike]

I have an opinion that you can buy used to save money and you do not need top of the line but you need functional. The OP and everyone reading these forums generally thinks from their own perspective - and it is hard not to inject some experience in the discussions when replying. Since I do not where and how the OP will be using the equipment - I can only give my perspective which is local and native to me and may be totally off base with the OP's planned use.

That said - if money were no object this discussion would be moot - but it always comes down to money.
How long is the OP going to use the equipment before they reconsider another purchase? For me - I was raised to buy what you can afford and wear it out. If I get a tear or something breaks, I fix it - I don't go out and buy another BC or BP/W - but I know people that do. Neither approach is wrong - in the shallow diving that I mostly do (under 100 feet) - I have not had an issue with old equipment that I have worked on. That said as I get older I do want some comfort that things will work. But a non-functioning BCD or BP/W should not kill me - a regulator failure without redundancy might and that is where I chose to spend my money. I spend the money where I think it does the most good - otherwise I tend to not worry about matching my outfit and I am not looking to go technical - pure recreational diving for me. I look for function for the next 5 to 10 years in the framework that I have planned and I spend accordingly.

Sorry, I can't figure out what your opinion is about BP/Ws based on this.

---------- Post added May 1st, 2015 at 09:00 AM ----------

To me the biggest benefits for a recreational diver are:
- Better buoyancy/trim characteristics
- Infinitely adjustable
- Reduced clutter/drag/danglies (compared to "average" BCD)
- Future proof

I think this is included in your point about buoyancy and trim, but moving weight away from a weight belt or waist pockets is a huge advantage. If you are traveling a lot, and opt for an aluminum or Kydex plate, you lose this advantage - it's a tradeoff with luggage weight. But I take my steel BP to the Caribbean, and love diving with nothing more than a couple of pounds in a cam band trim pocket. Very solid, excellent for trim.