Internet gear question

[Jasonmh]

Huh, I understand some of what you are trying to say in your post.
But some of it makes no sense to me. You say this:
"30% increase over what it costs online. Thats costing me around 100$ over the costs online. But I simply can't afford to do that for gear for me"
and then you say:
"As a new diver would I pay a LDS shop 100-200$ an hour to inspect my equipment for problems and give me a quick show on how to use the equipment"

So you would pay a local dive store 200 dollars an hour to inspect all your internet purchased gear and show you how to use it? Wouldn't that really wipe out any saving of ordering online?

I haven't been in a dive shop yet that would not give you atleat a 10% discount if you were buying all that stuff for you and your wife. So that takes your 30% savings online to 20%. Then if you were paying them 200 dollars an hour to show you how to use it you would quickly deplete the 20% saving. Why not pay the 20% more and have them inspect and show you how to use it for free?

And the next part is just speculation on my part, cause it depends on the dive shop,
But spending that kind of money at a dive shop would probably make you a very highly regarded customer, possibly getting other future purchases at a discount, free service, air-fills, discounts on training, etc.

People should buy stuff from where ever they want, and I am not against purchasing online, but your suggestion of paying 200 dollar per hour to a dive shop to help you with online purchased gear will certainly wipe out the saving of purchasing online. And, it does not seem like a good model for the dive shop to follow, cause there are VERY few people who are willing to pay a dive shop 200/hour for anything.

I tried that. Most of the local shops here seemed shocked that I had the nerve to even call around locally and price shop. Some things are pretty close in price (regulators thankfully are one). BCs on the otherhand seem to be 30%-50% higher or more. The sad thing is if you even mention internet they go into "the speech". You have to pay shipping if you buy online. Shipping on 800$ worth of stuff=20-30$, tax on 1040$=72.80$ (thats the 30% higher LDS prices) so no savings there. Then you get the warranty speech. Well scubatoys stuff is all warrantied and a good example are fins. 190$ locally, 130$ at scubatoys (his price on the site). So I pay 406.60$ after tax for two sets locally(me and the wife). Online I pay 275$ shipped. That leaves me with 131.60$ in savings. So if I order it online I can *lose* a set and buy a replacement and be at the same price as the LDS. Think they will help me if I come in with 1 fin saying I lost the other one? lol. Seems like in that case online is a pretty good "warranty".

I'm sorry, I love to support the local scene but if someone can't come up with a working business model that allows them to compete then thats not really my problem. Obviously brick and mortar stores and the internet are not mutally exclusive, scubatoys proves that.

The other problem is the manufacturers. The LDS said internet sales are "screwing them" (quote). I disagree, I think it is the manufacturers that are screwing them. Not allowing online sales or price locking your products through dealer agreements (I know scubapro does this) only screws the dealer. Unless they can find a way to stop shops like LP from selling the stuff anyway at WAY less then the LDS then policies like this only hurt the authorized dealers.

The bottom line is I really really want to support my LDS, so I am buying my personal gear packages locally at a 30% increase over what it costs online. Thats costing me around 100$ over the costs online. But I simply can't afford to do that for gear for me and the wife. At 30% higher (almost 50% for alot of BCs) and if you include a 7% tax in there it ends up bringing a 1000$ online purchase up to almost 1400$ locally. Thats 2800$ for us both (locally) and 2000$ online, 800$ lower.

Heck maybe I have a new business model right here. Offer a "gear inspection and setup" service. You buy your stuff online if you want and the LDS will inspect it for defects and help you set it up and show you how to use it for a reasonable and profitable hourly fee.

My wife and I run a Photography business. She handles the day to day and I have a day job (Network Engineer). As a network engineer I am often asked by friends in the small business community to offer consulting to them for computer and networking issues. My rate varies from 80-250$ dollars an hour. My hourly rate for weddings runs around 200$ an hour. As a new diver would I pay a LDS shop 100-200$ an hour to inspect my equipment for problems and give me a quick show on how to use the equipment (since its likely to be different then the stuff you rent or trained in)?? Heck ya! Figure an hour or two for a service like that, maximum. Thats *still* 400-600$ cheaper if you buy it online.

I could swallow a 10% premium, maybe even 20% (200-400$) but not a 30-50% premium.

Any suggestions for talking the LDS into getting closer to that 10-20% mark? I think most of us would much rather buy at, and have a LDS then buy online.

Ben

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Some enjoyable comments here, obviously from people who've got no idea of what it costs to run a dive shop.

Too stupid to price the same as the internet? Can't be done. Impossible. You're stupid if you try in fact. Let's all race to the bottom of the pile.

You want service with a warranty or the cheapest prices?

Is it really cheap though? Buy your aqua-lung or scubapro online, go ahead. You won't get free parts for life will you. It doesn't take many years before that reg was acutally free. Any of these here today gone tomorrow internet thieves going to give you a free reg?

 

[kidspot]

I keep hearing a 30-50% markup... around here 50% is considered low... nearly all my gear I found online which if the LDS sells it, would be 100-150% higher... Take my latest BC (Halcyon Explorer MC pack) - I got it new online for $251 - from any LDS around here would have been $600-$750 if they could even get it... I got a warranty and everything else... but when I can, I give them my business and I try to send them customers that "can" afford them (I just can't - and they are considered one of the lower price LDS' on the island)

just my .02 cents ... which may be worth less depending on inflation ...

Aloha, Tim

 

[mike_s]

I gotta agree with that. The markup is huge in this industry. The owner of my LDS has told me what several of this items costs to him at "his cost" and there is a huge markup.

But not all shops get the same pricing. There are many scuba shops that sell only 1 regulator a montha and keep maybe only one or two in "stock" in their stores. They buy so little from the manufacturer that they get no quanity discount on ordering.

It's a very "odd" industry.

 

[JRO]

$280 for a UK Light Cannon, with my discount for having bought my BC, reg, computer, and dive bag from them.....

Or $200 for the entire Tribal Pak (Light Cannon / Mini-Q40 / UK Titanium knife) from ScubaToys with the full warranty. As far as shipping...I don't remember although I think it was pretty well offset by Larry's ScubaBoard member discount and the little extra Larry took care of because I bought some other items while I was at it.

Would I like to support my local shop...Of course I would, I think the fact that initially I bought most of the more expensive items I own from them confirms that. I actually hate buying things online and I am generally willing to pay 10-20% more to buy it from an actual human being that I can talk to about it. But the idea of paying 50% more for less stuff...I just can't get behind it.

Here's a thought...LDS buys gear from ScubaToys or other reputable place (with warranty) and then resells it for 20% more...hmmmm

 

[halocline]

I suggest you buy the gear wherever you want. It's best if you can find an experienced dive buddy or instructor not associated with a particular store to advise you, as unbiased, realistic gear advice is what new divers need most when purchasing gear. When I first got certified, my LDS was NO help in this, prefering to just try to sell me whatever they thought I'd buy. Scubatoys is pretty good about this, but the best is going to be a local person who knows gear and is not trying to sell you anything. You can get alot of information from this forum, but often you'll get lots of opinions and conflicting advice, and this can make it difficult to act.

The most difficult things to purchase online are wetsuits and certain types of BCs, which need to fit exactly to be useful, and it's beyond the abilities of most new divers to evaluate the fit. You might bit the bullet and buy a wetsuit locally where you can get fit well and rent other gear for a while. Regarding the reg, almost any decent quality reg will work well for a long time; I wouldn't spend a fortune on one, and if a dealer gives you the old standby line "isn't your life worth a few extra $hundred", walk right out the door and don't look back. Safety is not what separates expensive regs from inexpensive ones.

The BC is a pretty personal choice; there are tons of 'em out there, and it's best to get some real dive experience before choosing. If you can rent or buy something simple and used to get this experience, you'll ultimately make a much more informed decision.

Eventually I ended up buying gear either used (reg), direct from the manufacturer (BC-actually backplate/wing, but it does the same thing), online at a non-scuba outdoor gear clearinghouse (wetsuit; I got really lucky with fit), or online at scubatoys (computer/guages).

Diving is, unfortunately, a gear intensive hobby with TONS of hype about what the latest and greatest thing is, and some divers tend to get fiercely attached to "their" brands and choices. Don't be afraid to wait on purchases and assemble gear slowly as you get the experience needed to really know what's best for you.

 

[bp_968]

The most difficult things to purchase online are wetsuits and certain types of BCs, which need to fit exactly to be useful, and it's beyond the abilities of most new divers to evaluate the fit. You might bit the bullet and buy a wetsuit locally where you can get fit well and rent other gear for a while.

I was actually considering buying a custom wetsuit from www.scubal.com I am tall (5'11") and VERY skinny (127 lbs) so most of the wet suit size charts I have seen don't even have anything that comes close. They would be to short, or baggy in the chest (all 3 rental wetsuits I have had in the past 2 years were baggy in the chest).

Anyone else ordered customs before?

Ben

 

[PugetDiver]

I'm just starting back diving and while looking at gear in a local shop, the clerk said that equipment purchased off the web would not carry the manufacturers Warranty. Whereas I try to support the local dive shops, on some items their prices are brutal. What's the deal?

You may want to try www.scuba.com they are an authorized dive shop out of southern California. I buy pretty much everything from them. They also have very inexpensive shipping costs (minimal in the overall scheme of things). Good Luck!!!!

 

[gregor1234]

I've got several anwers and some info for you. Perhaps some were covered by other posters... sorry I haven't read all the replies.

1) I just received 3 custom wetsuits from Scuba-L (also known as Triple-L at http://store.triple-l.biz/index.asp? ) and was quite happy with what I got for the price. The wet suits are pretty basic but the fit is custom and the price is pretty much the same as a low-end off-the-rack brand name suit. The stitching appears solid but only time will tell how well they'll wear. The keepads frankly could be better but whaddaya want for such a low price?

What happens is that you go through the normal order process on line and as you add options, the price quite increases (i.e. 5mm > 3mm, hooded > unhooded, etc.). when you get to the size option you click "custom" and then you complete the on-line order along with your credit card payment shipping address and everything. Be sure you write down the order number. Next you go and fill out their custom fit size chart page (be sure some one else can measure you. Preferably while you stand atop a chair). You include your order number on the size chart page and "submit" this separately.

THen they then match you order with your custom size chart and send you back an email in a day or two saying that shipping will be an additional $50 (for each custom suit). You email back "OK, let 'er rip!" and they manufacture the wetsuit and express it to your door.

I've corresponded with other Triple-L customers and the $50 for "shipping" for a custom suit is the same as far as I can tell for anywhere in the US. The cost is likely more than just the shipping with the extra going to pay for the custom cutting and sewing job. Calling it a shipping fee may be some sort of legal thing. But then again, they do use DHL 2nd-day express for shipping (which is from Ho Chi Min City in Viet Nam). For my three suits (one each for me and my two sons) I ordered them on June 28 this year and received them on July 6... pretty quick eh? The airbill said they left Ho Chi Min City on July 5 so I guess they really did express them. So for each 5mm unhooded jump suit I paid a little over $130. A bargain for a custom fit AND my high-priced LDS had to agree with my purchase since they couldn't offer a custom fit.

You should note that unlike the pictures on the web, the Triple-L jumpsuits come with zippers on the back (noth the front like the pictures) and with zippers on the arms and legs.

2) LDS has huge markups. The reason why is because you live in Cincinnati and not in Key Largo. There's probably only 3-4 dive shops in town and each pf them probably only sells a few outfits every year, they need that huge margin to stay in business and there is no real price competition. My LDS also has a huge markup but they are an excellent operation both for training and service and I NEED for them to stay in business so I try to make a certain amount of my purchases there. Some of my best purchases were retired rental items from the LDS. Ask your LDS about retired rental BCs and reggies. They'll be happy you bought them and happy to service them at a reasonable cost.

3) I couldn't afford to go diving if it weren't for ebay. I buy lots of the little piddly things that add up on ebay like lights, computers snorkels, cameras. My LDS doesn't seem to mind that I spend that money on line and not with them because I still come back with 3BCDs, 3 Reggys, and 6 AL80's every year for service.

 

[scubaotter]

I fully agree that all of us need to support local dive shops BUT, you have to spend your money wisely as well.

I am currently helping two of my neighbors get invovled in our wonderful sport. I have taken them to several dive shops and given them the websites for such places as scuba toys and leisure pro. I have recommended to them that they buy their smaller items such as fins, mask, snorkel online and spend the money at a local store for the regulator. I am on the fence about buying a BC online or in a local store.

I think that you should give a local shop the opportunity to decrease their sticker price in lieu of losing a purchase to an internet only dealer but, to each his own.

I have found that it leaves a bad taste in someone's mouth to buy an item in a store only to see it online for 50-75% less than what they paid.