Interesting air management...

[garyfotodiver]

I certainly agree that when some one calls the dive it's over.

However I don't remember really being taught that until technical training.

Mike, I learned this in a NASDS course in 1970 (card # K1600); my daughter learned this in a PADI OW course last year.

Let's suppose that someone has a problem, forgets to make the proper hand signal or write out the problem on a slate, and just signals "up". His buddy ignores the signal and continues on his way. Who is at fault?

I say the buddy. Up means UP! Discuss it on the surface, never dive with that buddy again, but up means up.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yup ... and I learned it in my YMCA OW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HammerNoMore]

My understanding has always been that thumbs is thumbs. There is no question involved and you can't take it back. Don't give it if you don't mean it. It's not a question but a command signal and must been returned. How you get to the exit may call for different routes depending on the circumstances as Mike pointed out in his post.

Right. I agree. I only used the thumb-question example as one that has happened to me. Buddy gives thumbs up for no apparant reason. You reply with thumb & question, just to make sure that it was a real thumbs up and not a newbie "this is cool". Buddy nods and repeats and up you go. I would never argue the point, just clarify.

I've also seen it used the other way around as well. As in Cozumel last month when the DM and I ran out of reef. He looked at me and did a thumbs/question. I.E. asking if I wanted to end the dive.

Again, I would never suggest arguring a call the dive signal, sorry if that was not clear.

 

[rcohn]

My understanding has always been that thumbs is thumbs. There is no question involved and you can't take it back. Don't give it if you don't mean it. It's not a question but a command signal and must been returned. How you get to the exit may call for different routes depending on the circumstances as Mike pointed out in his post.

I'm just a recreational level diver so let me see if I understand how the technical community uses the thumbs up sign. Does the thumbs-up sign mean turn the dive now or directly ascend to the surface without consideration of any safety/practical issues?

Let's say you are 1500 ft in on a cave dive and you buddy gives the thumbs up sign. Both divers then immediately begin digging up through the rock to take the shortest route to the surface? Or do you swim out the 1500 ft to the exit point?

How about a deep wreck dive with say over a 30 minute decompression obligation? Your boat is tied in at one end of the wreck and you are at the opposite end in a stiff current. The buddy pair immediately leaves the wreck without considering returning to the ascent line for a long drifting deco with uncertain pickup?

Ralph

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

I'm just a recreational level diver so let me see if I understand how the technical community uses the thumbs up sign. Does the thumbs-up sign mean turn the dive now or directly ascend to the surface without consideration of any safety/practical issues?

Let's say you are 1500 ft in on a cave dive and you buddy gives the thumbs up sign. Both divers then immediately begin digging up through the rock to take the shortest route to the surface? Or do you swim out the 1500 ft to the exit point?

How about a deep wreck dive with say over a 30 minute decompression obligation? Your boat is tied in at one end of the wreck and you are at the opposite end in a stiff current. The buddy pair immediately leaves the wreck without considering returning to the ascent line for a long drifting deco with uncertain pickup?

Ralph

Aside from some of the intended humor, when some one gives the thumb, it is a command .... any questions get sorted out later ... The second diver returns the command to confirm that he's on the same page and they begin "properly egressing and ascending" (for the situation they are in) at that time. As they continue the egress/ascent, additional communication and observation will usually answer the reason for the thumb in the fisrt place. Obviously, they can't start going up if there's a hard overhead untill they have cleared it. In your wreck scenario, It's a judgement call on the team's part. It depends on why they called the dive. If one guy's suit floods and he's cold, swimming back to the line isn't such a big deal as to shoot a bag and ascend immediately, if he broke his leg, then swimming is not much of an option, shooting a bag may well be. The thumb means to "END" the dive, not just "Turn" the dive, if it's an overhead, then obviously egress preceeds the actual ascent. In a soft OH (deco obligation), it becomes a judgement call dependant on the situation. I'd risk getting bent if I was bleeding to death, I'd do my hang if getting bent is the worse of the possibilities.

Some options are just "situationally dependant". That's a lot of what advanced dive training is all about: being able to match the best option to the present situation, and do it fast.


Darlene

 

[Albion]

.In the debriefing, I was told by the senior in the group that because of the waves, it was safer to go back under water. I looked long and hard out over the near perfect calm, "What wave were you referring to...?"
JAG

This has to be Izu, i had this treatment down there. Weekend diving on the same site because it was "TOO DANGEROUS on the other site", looked flat to me

 

[jagfish]

It was...
Izu Oceanic Park (IOP).

JAG

 

[Dan Gibson]

No problem. I just thought it might need clearing up for others who don't really know.

I was in a situation in Cave 2 where a gave the sign a a buddy thought I was asking a question if he wanted me to end the dive because he was busy fixing his light head. The head came loose because the nylon bolt was stripped. I gave it several times and a very loud what the #@*$ before David Rhea rapped on his noggin and in no uncertain terms gestured to end the dive now. It was miscommunication on the buddies part. The first thing David Did was ask my buddy what thumbs means. He tried to explain that he thought I was asking a question. David replied. It isn't used for a question. It's only a command and demands a return of the same. If one accidently gives the sign at the primary tie off, the dive is done. There is no taking it back. It's too easy for someone to second guess why it was given. The buddy could be narced out of his mind and someone could try to justify continuing if the buddy responds I'm ok, lets go on. The reason I was concerned was it was at around 95 feet in Ginnie and I thought he might actually be narced. This same buddy had experienced a wicked CO2 narcosis the day before at Little River just 4 minutes after hitting the bottom around the same depth. He had been working too hard and the flow was higher than usual.

I think it better to never use it as a question, only a command and it's demanded response. If I have a question I can't communicate, I get out the wetnotes and write it.

I understand the newbie example. You just have to break people of that bad habbit or they will be looking for other buddies who don't want to waste a lot of time gearing up for a couple of minutes of diving.

The DM should use another signal. I have seen the rotating finger for turn the dive, point in a new direction, use the question signal followed by a direction signal or just shrug your shoulders (i.e. what next). I'm sure there are others.

Right. I agree. I only used the thumb-question example as one that has happened to me. Buddy gives thumbs up for no apparant reason. You reply with thumb & question, just to make sure that it was a real thumbs up and not a newbie "this is cool". Buddy nods and repeats and up you go. I would never argue the point, just clarify.

I've also seen it used the other way around as well. As in Cozumel last month when the DM and I ran out of reef. He looked at me and did a thumbs/question. I.E. asking if I wanted to end the dive.

Again, I would never suggest arguring a call the dive signal, sorry if that was not clear.

 

[rcohn]

Aside from some of the intended humor, when some one gives the thumb, it is a command .... any questions get sorted out later ... The second diver returns the command to confirm that he's on the same page and they begin "properly egressing and ascending" (for the situation they are in) at that time. As they continue the egress/ascent, additional communication and observation will usually answer the reason for the thumb in the fisrt place. Obviously, they can't start going up if there's a hard overhead untill they have cleared it. In your wreck scenario, It's a judgement call on the team's part. It depends on why they called the dive. If one guy's suit floods and he's cold, swimming back to the line isn't such a big deal as to shoot a bag and ascend immediately, if he broke his leg, then swimming is not much of an option, shooting a bag may well be. The thumb means to "END" the dive, not just "Turn" the dive, if it's an overhead, then obviously egress preceeds the actual ascent. In a soft OH (deco obligation), it becomes a judgement call dependant on the situation. I'd risk getting bent if I was bleeding to death, I'd do my hang if getting bent is the worse of the possibilities.

Some options are just "situationally dependant". That's a lot of what advanced dive training is all about: being able to match the best option to the present situation, and do it fast.


Darlene

Isn't that exactly what they did? Analyze the situation performed a direct egress?

When he hits 50 bar he tells me. I give him the surface signal, which would mean we would have about a 100 yard swim in calm water to the exit. Well, his buddy comes along and signals that she has 150 bar left, and she wants to give him her octopus. She only weighs about 70 pounds and lungs like a bird, pretty nice bouancy as well. Anyway, we are about 25 or 30 feet down, I look puzzled and say no and give the up signal again, but the other buddy pair comes and supports the octopus option, so I just back off because they seem like they have a system for this that I was not aware of. Plus, I was morbidly curious.

Clearly, the diver giving the thumbs up was not in distress, not the group leader, and not the buddy of the diver who was low on air. Also, clearly unfamiliar with their standard procedures.

Remember recreational divers may not be trained to view a thumbs-up as an absolute command. They are often beginners, less disciplined and rigorously trained than technical divers and some signals may be given at inappropriate times, in unsafe conditions, or for the wrong reason. I think it is appropriate to analyze a situation before blindly acting (which apparently is exactly what a technical diver would do as well).

Ralph

 

[IndigoBlue]

Dove with a huge group of students from my univesity today, my first dive with the scuba club. Like most club activities here in Japan, it was very organized and ritualized, and had lots of meetings. I was ready to dive at 8 am, but we had to have another 2 hours of briefings, checks, maps.

I got popped onto the back end of a group of 4, two folks with about 90 dives, two folks with about 20-30. In terms of total dives, dives on this site, and diving in different situations, I was certainly more experienced, but I was their guest, so I was kinda hanging back and getting a feel for how this was all working. I had dove the site about 30 times before, conditions were almost dead calm, shore entry, 63 degree water, vis about 30 feet, zero current.

They were going to engage in a navigation exercise, and I was more or less observing. One strict rule the club has is that if anyone gets to 50 bar, they have to stop using that tank (which I assumed meant that they had to surface). Maybe you see where this might go...

Anyway, on dive one, the leader was hopelessly off course, but I was enjoying the spring bloom of juvenile fish. Everyone was making regular air checks, which was good. One kid was drastically overweight, which is amazing, because he was only wearing 4 pounds, wearing a 5 mm wetsuit. He only weights about 75 pounds I'd say, thin as a rail.

Well, I know he is going to be the first to gas down, struggling with his boyancy. When he hits 50 bar he tells me. I give him the surface signal, which would mean we would have about a 100 yard swim in calm water to the exit. Well, his buddy comes along and signals that she has 150 bar left, and she wants to give him her octopus. She only weighs about 70 pounds and lungs like a bird, pretty nice bouancy as well. Anyway, we are about 25 or 30 feet down, I look puzzled and say no and give the up signal again, but the other buddy pair comes and supports the octopus option, so I just back off because they seem like they have a system for this that I was not aware of. Plus, I was morbidly curious.

They make most of the awkward swim back, then both have to surface, me on their tail, about 30 yards to the exit, short swim on surface afterwards. I wanted him to do a boyancy check with his near empty tank, but he was called in for the after dive briefing (as was I).

In the debriefing, I was told by the senior in the group that because of the waves, it was safer to go back under water. I looked long and hard out over the near perfect calm, "What wave were you referring to...?" Never really got a straight answer on it, and of course, language barrier had an effect. I supported his idea of air sharing if the conditions were rough, or to escape a surface current, etc, but no way I would go out of my way to share air with that overweighted bottom-stomper if there were another reasonable option.

So for the second dive, I gave the heads up to all in my group, "You or I hit 50 bar and we go to the surface."

JAG

It looks like this dive club is critically lacking of a turn-around point procedure. These guys seem like the kind of divers that I would always bring a LARGE pony bottle with me while I went diving with them.

And Rule Numba One is nobody else gets to use my pony.

These are also the kind of buddies that make solo diving look safe by comparison.