Instructors as role models

[TSandM]

The instructor who boasted about the log was the one who mocked our equipment check.

I'm thinking more these days about looking into the future and possibly teaching. But I'll teach what I do (and do what I teach) because I'm diving the way I am because I'm convinced of the utility and safety of the way I dive. I am very conscientious about procedures, and so are my buddies (except I let Bob slide sometimes . . . need to stop doing that ),and if I were going to teach, my students would do thorough dive planning, head to toe equipment checks, bubbles checks, and a dive plan review before submerging. The instructors I've had who I've most admired have been the most demanding and meticulous about us following procedures to a T -- including not accepting our assurance that we have done the checks, but insisting we do them again where they can be observed. When you see people who can dive circles around you, and they don't skip a single detail, it impresses you that this stuff is IMPORTANT, and not just window dressing.

This was one of the reasons I started this thread, is that I have been very significantly influenced by just watching the behavior of the instructors I admire. And I also feel there is a duty of care that comes with knowledge and training, that the instructor involved in the 200 foot fatality failed to observe.

 

[do it easy]

Well consider me your first student- I've decided to change my ways when diving with new buddies and make sure that they realize that I am doing the buddy checks and gas planning.

I have to admit that I don't always go over all the dive planning details when I am leading dives with new buddies or novice divers. We do have a loose plan and at every step, I consider turning the dive based on pressure. Most of the time I don't even ask new buddies their pressure or to show me their gauge. I might sneak a peek while they are looking at something, and then do the gas calculations to ensure that we return with at least 500 psi. I'm not sure if they know that I do this. I might be a good buddy, but I might also be sending the message that dive planning and gas management aren't necessary since they don't see me do it.

I think that I might have scared a buddy recently when he flashed me five fingers to signal that he had 500 psi towards the end of a dive. This was the number that I was expecting, so I quickly signaled OK. We were at 20' depth and 30' from the ascent line, but I don't think that he realized this, so he pulled out his guage and showed it to me to make sure I understood. He might have thought that I didn't care. After a few kicks, I showed him the ascent line.

 

[lazyturtle]

This has been an interesting thread. I'd say that if I announce that I'm an instructor that I act like I expect other divers to act. If I'm going for a fun dive (not with my regular buddies) I ususally dive solo (still safe), so I don't have anyone to provide an example for. I certainly don't strut up and down the dive site shouting that I'm an instructor before I go in. In general though my planing might seem (at a glance) to be pretty light, but it's always complete. I dive the same sites so often that I don't need to look at the tables, I already know what time each site can be dove to. I always check my gear (though I'm quick because I've done it so many times).
I'd say that mocking anyone for any reason is unaccpetable behavior past the age of
3.
Finally falsifying a boat log (at least in the USA and probably every country) is against the law. That being said dive information (depths, plans, etc) is not required information for a boat log (though the company might have thier own policy).

The quote I've put below just tripped me out. It's totally wrong (unless the instructor was working as a guide). Liability requires a relationship (i.e. I'll give you x to take me diving or teach me to dive), no relationship, no liability. As a customer (lets say I paid to go on a dive boat) I have no liability regardless of my training level, I'm a customer just like anyone else. It doesn't matter what card I show. By the logic of the quoted post below professional rescue divers, instructors, dms, ais, emts, firemen/women, police, etc would need to bring a stack of waivers with them and force everyone on the boat to sign before diving in case anything happens. Only the employees (and really only employees that are working, if you're diving on your day off you have no responsiblity to anyone), the boat and the dive company incur a liability risk.

Exactly. Instructors & Divemasters carry insurance for a reason. That is the mantle he chose to carry and he can pretend all he wants, but if there had been an accident on that dive you know who the authorities & lawyers would be looking for. I know guys that only show their OW card when on a boat dive because of this (and they know that, in reality, they're just kidding themselves). It's not a switch you can turn on & off.

This guy who chastised you is probably a jerk in other areas of his life as well.

 

[Cacia]

yes, thats true, a contractual relationship. x for z.

I think he was a rude guy. period. He wants to go to 200 feet...fine.

You want to fly a ballon around the world ..fine.

You want to put a baboon heart in a baby that is going to die anyway?..push ahead.

There will always be people coloring outside the lines....

The kid I was talking about? His dad left him at birth..his mom struggles financially.
Yet, they have pulled together and he is a fantastic child,...a little "man" always there for his mom. She saw how life had shorted him...he was tiny on top of everything..and she weighed the risk, and has always made ways to make him feel important and big and in charge of his own power. I love the fact that she raised him that way, and that they were on this adventure together. She let him feel he was better and more capable than "most kids". And she calculated correctly---yes she took a risk, but she is invested and knows her child. She gave his esteem a boost at a crucial time, in his life. So...it gripes me that some bystander could cause her trouble because they think they know better.

Like the old man at Baby Barge who freedives alone -- oh yea, I know, he could cost the taxpayers some bucks for his "bad judgement" but I like having people like him around/ Even though he is "breaking the rules"..he inspires me.

Basically, I really don't care about the rules, unless you are directly causing harm to someone else.

If you are blessed enough to know this man is a fool...just be glad and move along.
Because, you have enough to worry about penetrating wrecks and staying alive yourself. If somebody is dumb enough to think he is a role model...well, thats nature at work, and you will never be able to change that. You are only distracting yourself by taking the time to call PADI.

 

[Rick Murchison]

And she calculated correctly---yes she took a risk, but she is invested and knows her child.

Physics and physiology are no respectors of ability, rank, good feelings or "knowing your child."
The whole reason we have depth limits for children isn't because we doubt their ability, it's because they aren't finished growing. We just simply don't know what a hit in the epiphyseal line might do to long bone growth, and we don't want to find out.
Please tell your friend, in the gentlest way, that keeping her son shallow, until he's as tall as he's going to get, is not a reflection on his ability - it's not based on that - it is, rather, a precaution to prevent one leg from ending up longer than the other one, or finding out he has osteonecrosis when he's 25.
Rick

 

[Thalassamania]

The quote I've put below just tripped me out. It's totally wrong (unless the instructor was working as a guide). Liability requires a relationship (i.e. I'll give you x to take me diving or teach me to dive), no relationship, no liability. As a customer (lets say I paid to go on a dive boat) I have no liability regardless of my training level, I'm a customer just like anyone else. It doesn't matter what card I show. By the logic of the quoted post below professional rescue divers, instructors, dms, ais, emts, firemen/women, police, etc would need to bring a stack of waivers with them and force everyone on the boat to sign before diving in case anything happens. Only the employees (and really only employees that are working, if you're diving on your day off you have no responsibility to anyone), the boat and the dive company incur a liability risk.

I don't think that's true. My understanding is that once you identify yourself as an Instructor, DM, AI, whatever (and all this requires is a patch, cap, etc.) you take on a duty toward others that a "normal" diver does not have. The precedents for this involve lifeguards who were wearing lifeguard swimsuits or shirts and did not respond as such when an incident occurred. I know of at least one case where a dive instructor was held to that same standard. My best advice is that if you do not want to comport yourself as an instructor and you do not want to have additional responsibility, take off the patches and get yourself a non-leadership card to use when you need to show a card.

 

[Rick Murchison]

I don't think that's true. My understanding is that once you identify yourself as an Instructor, DM, AI, whatever (and all this requires is a patch, cap, etc.) you take on a duty toward others that a "normal" diver does not have. The precedents for this involve lifeguards who were wearing lifeguard swimsuits or shirts and did not respond as such when an incident occurred. I know of at least one case where a dive instructor was held to that same standard. My best advice is that if you do not want to comport yourself as an instructor and you do not want to have additional responsibility, take off the patches and get yourself a non-leadership card to use when you need to show a card.

It's even worse than that... If a good trial lawyer finds out you're an instructor and you were there at a mishap, and you did nothing to prevent or ameliorate it (even if you really didn't have an opportunity to), you will find yourself on the wrong side of a lawsuit, answering the question "why didn't you step in to stop this? You had the knowledge, you had the ability, you had the opportunity... why, Mr. Instructor, did you stand by and let poor Joe die when you could have stopped it?"
And a jury ain't gonna take kindly to "because I didn't want to get involved; because since I was 'just a diver' on this trip I have no responsibility to act." Indeed, the next thing out of the lawyer's mouth after you try your "no obligation" defense will be "Your excuses are unacceptable." And you're dead meat.
If you can't accept that, you need to hang up your instructor hat. And realize that you'll still carry some of that liability with you for several more years.
And God help you if someone gets hurt following your bad example!

Liability requires a relationship (i.e. I'll give you x to take me diving or teach me to dive), no relationship, no liability.

A relationship, yes... an agreement, no! If you're an instructor and someone else is in trouble then the relationship is established because you're an instructor. The closest metaphor I can think of off the top of my head is the implied consent to a blood alcohol test that you grant when you drive on the public roads. It is implied that as an instructor you'll use your instructor skills and knowledge if they are required to keep someone from getting killed or hurt, if you can reasonably do so. (or, I think the legal standard is "if a reasonable person with your skills and knowledge would do so."). Bottom line - failure to disclose your instructor rating doesn't relieve you of the duties you have to society by virtue of being an instructor.
Rick

 

[Thalassamania]

It's even worse than that... If a good trial lawyer finds out you're an instructor and you were there at a mishap, and you did nothing to prevent or ameliorate it (even if you really didn't have an opportunity to), you will find yourself on the wrong side of a lawsuit, answering the question "why didn't you step in to stop this? You had the knowledge, you had the ability, you had the opportunity... why, Mr. Instructor, did you stand by and let poor Joe die when you could have stopped it?"
And a jury ain't gonna take kindly to "because I didn't want to get involved; because since I was 'just a diver' on this trip I have no responsibility to act." Indeed, the next thing out of the lawyer's mouth after you try your "no obligation" defense will be "Your excuses are unacceptable." And you're dead meat.
If you can't accept that, you need to hang up your instructor hat. And realize that you'll still carry some of that liability with you for several more years.
And God help you if someone gets hurt following your bad example!
Rick

You are correct. I just try to minimize my visibility when on a dive boat. The only thing that could ID me is the reflective stripes on my snorkel tip (we use a system not unlike a Naval Officer's sleeve) and that's arcane enough that no one has ever noticed.

 

[Bobbin-along]

Since I dive mainly with instructors and DMs (they are friends) we've come to an agreement of sorts. We are out together, not engaged in training dives, they are not being paid, and I'm not receiving any type of certification as a result of these dives. That means they can stop being in trainer mode and enjoy their dives just like someone who is doing their 5th dive. That does not mean they stop being intelligent divers. And it does mean that they do need to act appropriately in the event of an emergency, as their training dictates.

We gear check, but none of us wear snorkels
We wear gear we are comfortable in, not the shop standardized gear. (BP/W, BIs are found on all of us from makers we like)
MOFs may occur, but we don't point and gasp in shock.
Regulators are not limited to only the brands the shop sells.
Gear configs range from tech to modified rec (long hose), Air2s and bungied 2nds, weight belts and integrated weights, split fins and slabs of plywood strapped to the feet.
We dive as buddies, and we dive to the skills and experience of the weakest diver (which is usually me).
We follow rock bottom times, safety stops, etc.

Now where things are grey. I had been diving at night, in current, past 60', sometimes with a combination of all three, without my AOW card. They never said more than the occasional ribbing. Yes it's a voluntary ceiling, but as instructors and DMs they probably should have told me they'd limit the dives until I had taken the class.

 

[Thalassamania]

Now where things are grey. I had been diving at night, in current, past 60', sometimes with a combination of all three, without my AOW card. They never said more than the occasional ribbing. Yes it's a voluntary ceiling, but as instructors and DMs they probably should have told me they'd limit the dives until I had taken the class.

I guess I'm missing this point. You don't need a card to make these sorts of dives; you need a certain level of knowledge and experience. Both of which may be gained through a class, or by diving with folks who are more experienced (as you do), which can be a better way to learn.