Instructors - Agencies Split from overweight

[Walter]

Do you think it's possible that some people are un-trainable? I have dove with a woman lately who actually had a lot of trouble passing the OW course. Yes, they *did* make her redo parts of it, with extra classes (so they did make an effort to train someone correctly who was having trouble). That and another experience lately makes me think some people (eh, in my case all women, but I know there are many exceptions ) just can't train themselves to NOT FREAK OUT!!!

Taking your long experience teaching diving and all the experience you actually have diving into consideration, I think you're the best qualified to answer your own question. Please Master Po, enlighten this unworthy one.

 

[EastEndDiver]

Do you think it's possible that some people are un-trainable? I have dove with a woman lately who actually had a lot of trouble passing the OW course. Yes, they *did* make her redo parts of it, with extra classes (so they did make an effort to train someone correctly who was having trouble). That and another experience lately makes me think some people (eh, in my case all women, but I know there are many exceptions ) just can't train themselves to NOT FREAK OUT!!!

You're painting with a very broad brush when you make comments like that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Do you think it's possible that some people are un-trainable? I have dove with a woman lately who actually had a lot of trouble passing the OW course. Yes, they *did* make her redo parts of it, with extra classes (so they did make an effort to train someone correctly who was having trouble). That and another experience lately makes me think some people (eh, in my case all women, but I know there are many exceptions ) just can't train themselves to NOT FREAK OUT!!!

I had a student once who was just great in the pool. took her to open water and she was just scared to death and she never got more than a few feet below the surface.

She worked in the pool with us for at least a year and she had perfect control in the water. She made several attempts in OW locally and never got in a dive. She tried a couple of times in tropical locations with the same result. She finally just gave up.

Teaching her the physical skills was easy but there was just something about lakes and oceans that she was afraid of and I didn't know how to help her with that. I would never expect her to panic in a pool but just floating on the surface in OW you could say "boo" to her and I'll bet she would crawl right out of her skin.

Oh, and she was a former competative swimmer and still a very good swimmer. But there again, that's done at the surface and usually in a pool.

 

[jefffalcone]

MikeFerrara or Walter,

I'm curious about what angecies do provide good training. Is there an agency that universally provides quality training? What skills should be taught in a padi OW class that are neglegted. I was taught proper weighting and bouyancy control in my OW class. I was only required to do mask removal and clearing while kneeling on the bottom of the pool, but isn't this pretty simple to do while swimming. I only have 40 dives and I will routinely take my mask off while swimming. I havn't yet seen a diver who couldn't clear his mask while swimming. I would think a diver would be pretty misreable if he didn't figure out this skill pretty quickly. These seem to be the main skills that I see mentioned over and over again. All of this stuff is relatively easy, and I think most people can manage is with 8 hours of pool time. I'm not really sure what is standard, just what happened in my class. I ask not to challenge your position, but to enlighten myself as to what should be in a OW class that may or may not have been in mine.
Also I'm curious, Walter, how long is your OW course and what does it include? How much do you charge? I'd ask you also Mike, but I think you said that you gave up being an instructor.

 

[Walter]

None of the agencies are perfect. They all have room to improve. You will also find there are instructors in all agencies who cut corners and violate standards. That results in poor classes in all agencies and isn't the agency's fault unless they don't take action when it is reported. It is extremely rare to get these instructors reported. Even unhappy students are not usually willing to report their instructor who has violated standards.

I'm familiar with the standards of only three agencies, so there may be more agencies with high standards. Of those whose standards I've studied, YMCA's are the closest to my ideal. NAUI's are next. Instructors following the standards of either of those two agencies should teach a pretty good class.

As for what I believe is important to include in a class, you can get that from my recommendations on how to find a good class here.

My open water class was 4 weeks long meeting once per week for 4 hours of classroom instruction and twice per week for 4 hour pool sessions. I did not accept more than 4 students per class and I was charging $500/student when I retired at the end of last year.

 

[dbg40]

Taking your long experience teaching diving and all the experience you actually have diving into consideration, I think you're the best qualified to answer your own question. Please Master Po, enlighten this unworthy one.

Unless I misunderstand this.........
Crap like this is the point. Some students are not trainable, they will never be competent in the water, and wil only be a danger to themselves, and others. And untill "expert" instructors are able and willing to dismiss a student from training, they are acting in an unprofessional, and to me,negligent manner. Untill the agencies train thier instructors to recognize when a person is eather out of shape physically, or mentally, they are living on the edge. Sooner or later, some layer is going to get his teeth into just this type of complaint from experienced divers, and instructors. Then the whole house of cards will come down. There are the minions of loyal instructors that will regurgitate the laws of diving to new students, that have been the target of poor training themselves. Therefore, they see no fault in the program. There are others that know, but follow like sheep anyway. Then there are those that have a professionals attitude towards what they do, and how its done. These are the poor guys that get branded as being a hard ***, and being a "bad instructor" because they refuse to hold the hand of someone that clearly dosen't get it, and never will. Good for them! These are the guys that understand that if you are not comfortable. and competent in the skills and environment, when trouble comes knocking, these fools will rush to the door.

 

[Hank49]

Unless I misunderstand this.........
Crap like this is the point. Some students are not trainable, they will never be competent in the water, and wil only be a danger to themselves, and others. And untill "expert" instructors are able and willing to dismiss a student from training, they are acting in an unprofessional, and to me,negligent manner. .

Some people learn faster than others, this is certain. Others are naturally more comfortable in the water due to background or just a total "go for it" attitude. but unless someone has a deep fear of water, they can be taught to dive at a level where they can safely enjoy themselves and not harm the environment. And as for out of shape or disabled people, who are you....or anyone for that matter, to tell them they can't dive? Just because someone wants to learn to DRIVE doesn't mean they want to ever race F1 cars.

 

[Sideband]

You haven't been paying attention. Had you been really reading this stuff you would know that the training isn't to blame for the bad diving and it's experience that makes you a good diver. You would also know that training can't prevent panic.

When you put it all together, the obviouse conclusion tis that you may as well not bother with training because it doesn't do anything.

And, that is just what I've bee trying to you about so much of the training that's available...it doesn't do anything for you.

so everyone agrees, thread over and I win.

So we have created a bit of a paradox. Training sucks. Experience is good. Without training, experience can kill you.

without training you can die
With training you can die
without experience you can die
getting experience you can die

I don't think the ways of old are necessary. Maybe, when a student first sits down in class the instructor should say something along the lines of,

"It is up to you how much you take from this and other classes. If you opt to get the very minimum that allows you to get your card I just want to be sure that you understand what that means. You will be a danger to yourself. You will be a danger to others. You will be a danger to the environment. There is an increased possibility that you or your buddy will be seriously injured or die. Good divers are always learning. Bad divers often lose that option. The choice is yours."

 

[Walter]

So we have created a bit of a paradox.

Naw, he just pointed it out.

 

[dbg40]

Some people learn faster than others, this is certain. Others are naturally more comfortable in the water due to background or just a total "go for it" attitude. but unless someone has a deep fear of water, they can be taught to dive at a level where they can safely enjoy themselves and not harm the environment. And as for out of shape or disabled people, who are you....or anyone for that matter, to tell them they can't dive? Just because someone wants to learn to DRIVE doesn't mean they want to ever race F1 cars.

I have no idea where you pulled any part of a slower learning curve out of what I posted. I said, Some people can NOT be taught to diver with any competance, or safety. Someone that it handicaped to the point that conventional scuba diving is not realistic for them should not dive, and the facts of physiology are that obesely overweight divers are at increased rik in this sport. Who I am, is someone that has not attended the Dr. feel good school of political correctness. Its no mystery. some people should not be in scuba gear, and be under water. While there may be some inherant dangers associated with diving, it is largely diminished by being in good mental, and physical condition. I als do NOT believe that the last word is in formal instruction with an affiliated agency. I can produce a host of outstanding divers that never set foot in a classroom, and have never suffered any injury related to diving. My self included. What the common factor was, was a desire to learn, a physical ability to support myself, extensive reading, and mentoring from an exceptionally competent and seasoned diver. The type of which only a seeming handful exist today. If you are oe, good for you, if not, that's for you to decide what you want to be when you grow up. As a whole (blanket endictment) diving has been dumbed up, and so the instructors. There are the exceptions, and I know several of them, but the key word is "exceptions" I believe this to be unacceptable. Thats all. no more. no less.