Instructors - Agencies Split from overweight

[jefffalcone]

None of the agencies are perfect. They all have room to improve. You will also find there are instructors in all agencies who cut corners and violate standards. That results in poor classes in all agencies and isn't the agency's fault unless they don't take action when it is reported. It is extremely rare to get these instructors reported. Even unhappy students are not usually willing to report their instructor who has violated standards.

I'm familiar with the standards of only three agencies, so there may be more agencies with high standards. Of those whose standards I've studied, YMCA's are the closest to my ideal. NAUI's are next. Instructors following the standards of either of those two agencies should teach a pretty good class.

As for what I believe is important to include in a class, you can get that from my recommendations on how to find a good class here.

My open water class was 4 weeks long meeting once per week for 4 hours of classroom instruction and twice per week for 4 hour pool sessions. I did not accept more than 4 students per class and I was charging $500/student when I retired at the end of last year.

Thanks for the response Walter. This seems to be about twice as much instruction as the average OW class for about the same price. Great deal! Was the certification you gave from a particular organization?

 

[SNorman]

For you guys dogpiling on me, I'm asking the question because I am not very experienced. My hunch was that some people will never be able to be trained properly. If I knew this as a fact I would just state that instead of asking.

Now, the case may not be that it's impossible for some people to learn, but that it would take more time and effort than they are willing to expend?

 

[Sideband]

Naw, he just pointed it out.

hehe. I didn't mean just now. I meant over the past however many years.

 

[dbg40]

For you guys dogpiling on me, I'm asking the question because I am not very experienced. My hunch was that some people will never be able to be trained properly. If I knew this as a fact I would just state that instead of asking.

Now, the case may not be that it's impossible for some people to learn, but that it would take more time and effort than they are willing to expend?

That's your opinion, and your entitled to it, I happen to agree with it. I have no idea why the subject is so touchy. It is what it is.

 

[Hank49]

I have no idea where you pulled any part of a slower learning curve out of what I posted. I said, Some people can NOT be taught to diver with any competance, or safety. Someone that it handicaped to the point that conventional scuba diving is not realistic for them should not dive, and the facts of physiology are that obesely overweight divers are at increased rik in this sport. Who I am, is someone that has not attended the Dr. feel good school of political correctness. Its no mystery. some people should not be in scuba gear, and be under water. While there may be some inherant dangers associated with diving, it is largely diminished by being in good mental, and physical condition. I als do NOT believe that the last word is in formal instruction with an affiliated agency. I can produce a host of outstanding divers that never set foot in a classroom, and have never suffered any injury related to diving. My self included. What the common factor was, was a desire to learn, a physical ability to support myself, extensive reading, and mentoring from an exceptionally competent and seasoned diver. The type of which only a seeming handful exist today. If you are oe, good for you, if not, that's for you to decide what you want to be when you grow up. As a whole (blanket endictment) diving has been dumbed up, and so the instructors. There are the exceptions, and I know several of them, but the key word is "exceptions" I believe this to be unacceptable. Thats all. no more. no less.

I used the learning curve example because I don't see it as black and white as you do. What criteria, other than uncontrolled screaming and clawing to get away from water every time one sees it, do you use to conclude that a person "can never be taught to dive"? You would have a hard time getting 5 experienced divers/instructors to agree on where or how to draw that line.....assuming they have no major sinus or ear problems.
You obviously have put a lot of time and effort into diving and it's paid off in making you a much more competent diver than the average vacation diver. But as you said, you learned from your experience and your own initiative. Others may never dive enough to gain your level of expertise but they can still, and have the right to, dive. If an overweight diver wants to dive and knows the risks involved, it's his/her choice.
I must be losing my touch. You're the first person to ever insinuate that I'm a "feel good PC". Thanks....I guess.

 

[Walter]

Was the certification you gave from a particular organization?

YMCA

For you guys dogpiling on me, I'm asking the question because I am not very experienced.

Sorry, you seemed to be setting yourself out there as an expert on dive instruction. To answer your original question, most people can learn to dive. Some learn faster than others and yes, there are some who cannot learn to dive.

I have no idea why the subject is so touchy.

It's not.

 

[Ronmedic]

Take a NAUI ITC. You will NEVER teach the same. My whole ITC was keyed into HOW people learn and HOW to facilitate that. My suggestion is to get into one with MB in it and eat your wheaties every single day!

Other than that, I have no idea how other agencies operate their ITCs. MB turned me to the dark side ( You can thank Walter for that) and since then I have hooked up with SDI as well.

Most are the same, I went through the NAUI ITC and found it no different in content than PADI,TDI,SDI, SSi or YMCA ITC/IDC's I have a BA in Adult Education, I tech EMT and Paramedic Courses as well as SCUBA at the Rec level and Tech level, and find no differnce in the amount of information on how to teach. Maslow's Hierarchy of needs will not help a SCUBA Instructor teach better. Honest to goodness experience performing actual dives will help as will a base requirement for such. When we only charge 99 bucks for an OW cert class then we can only pay an instructor 20 bucks to teach per student, so we get sub-standard instructors(18-25 year old grads of Hall's)no experience actually diving difficult stressful dives and how to overcome the stress. I charge $650.00 for an EMT course and the State requires experience in the field. I get paid well for experience and knowledge, not just because I pass an instructor course. Charge for the courses, people will pay for quality courses, not quantity

 

[dbg40]

THANKS!......It was meant as an insult ! (I must be losing MY touch) (kidding)

I have to believe that you have been in a situation where you have looked at a dive, and said to yourself, there's no way this guy (girl) should be diving. As far as an overweight diver is concerned, they are at an increased risk. Every instructor knows it, and every experienced diver knowas it. That is where I draw the line on tht. Regardles of thier desire to join in the fun, certifying them is a disservice to them. It places them in a higher risk position than just being fat and sitting in front of the TV. As far as aptitude, and attitude, if during a pool session, a student is showing signs of anxiety during even the most basic and controlled skills, a flag should go up. Offten the student can work these things out on thier own in quick order, offten times they can't. Scuba instructors are not psychotherapists, and pushing them along, or hand holding through the process is not a good idea. If they can't get through it on thier own, they should seek another sport. Maybe skydiving....I have been on the receiving end of a wild *** panic attack from hell without warning from a newly hatched diveling. And was less than surprised to later find that she displayed the same behavior in pool sessions. Appearantly, she forgot how to breathe through a mouthpiece, when wearing a mask. Come to find out, quite offten. I have many stories of this kind, some funny as hell, some pretty freaky. All unnecessary. There are allways warning signs, as a pro, you should be able to see and interprate these issues before sending a student into dangerous situations by certifying them. Some can wash out, collect thier thoughts, gain a little more knowledge , or gain a more adequite physical prowess, and return to do fine. That is thier decision, not the instructors. Thetre is a reason behind the train of thought by guy's like me that says people can now simply buy thier certifications, not earn them. I actually had this very conversation with an instructor last fall. His responce to me was that, things have changed, divers have new techniques and gear to help them dive now. You don't need the same skills as you used to in years past. WOW, ...so, new divers have gear that cannot fail? and keeps them from panic, and subsequent drowning??? When the act in a manner that is going to be less than intelligent, the gear will stop them like a mechanical mommy? Old or new, divers drown when they get more water than air in thier lungs. Panic usually is at the bottom of this fact. And fat out of shape divers tend to stress out noe, and have heart attacks more offten than those that are in good physical condition. A learning curve is simply an accelerated, or retarded time base in which each of us can interperate a given block of information in a given time frame. Nothing can be said to discourage a slower learner in training. They simply take a bit longer to absorb the information. If they have a meltdown when they have to breathe through a snorkel..every time!

 

[Walter]

Most are the same, I went through the NAUI ITC and found it no different in content than PADI,TDI,SDI, SSi or YMCA ITC/IDC's

You went through all of those? (YMCA doesn't have an ITC nor an IDC)

 

[SNorman]

YMCA
Sorry, you seemed to be setting yourself out there as an expert on dive instruction. To answer your original question, most people can learn to dive. Some learn faster than others and yes, there are some who cannot learn to dive.

I am just scratching the surface on diving so I can only draw from my other experiences which also deal with training, fight or flight/freaking out, OODA loop, etc. Some people are always going to freeze and scream when confronted with a deadly situation, I expect it would be equally hard for them to remain calm when they are sinking in the water and can't breathe.

My only point is that the level of training to overcome this can be much higher than the desire of that person to take that training.