Instructor sentenced after diver's death

[CT-Rich]

Dumping the air in the BCD was a decision made without the Diver's consent. If the man made it to the surface with barotrauma, the instructor would have a much stronger case.

At the end of the day, this couple was paying the instructor and the shop for their expertise in diving in a new environment. Saying they were certified and thus responsible doesn't cut it. They did the right thing by seeking professional help in making the dive. They certainly didn't get it. If you are paid to babysit, then the job is to deliver the baby at the end of the night, alive. This instructor actively made the situation worse.

Who would rent out a 5mm wetsuit to dive in a central European lake? THEN take them to 100'? I wouldn't have done that dive with anything less than a drysuit (what could you possibly see that deep in a German lake? I just looked at a few videos and there is really nothing there. Just some junk laden boat hulls (one with pots, another with tires and another with jerry cans).

Very regrettable,

 

[markmud]

You did not directly blame the training agency. But that is how one gets poorly trained divers. The training agency, its dive professionals, and certification standards are BY FAR the greatest influence on diver training most divers will ever experience. These divers were products of the system. They did not take the next step to being competent independent divers, and I am confident from my own dive training they were never pushed by their agency to do so.

What good does it do to assign responsibility to those from whom it has deliberately been removed? This is not a case where these two divers were diving by themselves, responsible for themselves and within their own known limits. If that was the case then I would absolutely agree with you that is was their fault. But instead they were being guided and taken care of. The dive shop and guide said 'this is safe, trust us for your safety' to divers trained from the beginning to trust the dive shop and dive professionals.

They train to dive within a system using those supports, and when those supports fail people can die. It is impossible to know exactly what their training was like; obviously these two were not competent to safely ascend from a deep dive under the conditions they were presented with. I would point out that without the presence of the guide both divers would be alive. Firstly because they would not have done that dive without an agency-sanctioned dive professional, and second because the bends is a lot more survivable than drowning alone on the bottom of a lake.

For what it is worth, I am reasonably certain the girlfriend has made the leap to not trusting others for her safety - if she ever dives again.

Hi Bierstadt,

I think you have a valid opinion, I just don't agree with it.

I am a cynical guy. Relying on some unknown so-called professional with my life does not work for me. I don't understand someone giving their lives to some moron. Natural selection works in different ways. People who tell me to "trust me" aren't worthy of my trust.

markm

 

[Miyaru]

The way I see this case, is that two novice divers came to a shop to dive. They were clear and honest about the experience they had. Lack of knowledge for diving in a cold water lake is something you could pin on them, however they went to a dive shop instead of just jumping in together.
So the shop's job was to educate and guide them. More specifically, it was the dive pro's job. The dive pro flaked in his preparations. Wrong wetsuits, tanks that were too small. Nothing has been written about education in altitude diving.

I am taking students out in about two to three months. Their knowledge will be nothing more than indoor pool experience. The water outside will be bordering around 16 degrees Celsius, just good enough for 7+5 mil wetsuits. It's my job to watch their backs, get them under water and get them safely out with a big smile on their face.

And it doesn't matter that my students are doing Open Water dive one. The experience will be the same for a diver with 25 warm water dives under his or her belt. Any single one of them might panic. My job is to handle that, and if it happens I will handle that. If fear of litigation stops you from doing that job, you have no business teaching. If you leave that inexperienced diver behind, like this instructor did.......you're incompetent.

Yes, you can blame the deceased for not ditching his weightbelt, not inflating his bcd and panicking under water. Lack of training? Maybe. So, train him. Make him a better diver. Something that is not done by over-weighting a diver in a too-thin wetsuit with a tiny tank strapped to his back. The instructor paved the way to panic.

 

[markmud]

The way I see this case, is that two novice divers came to a shop to dive. They were clear and honest about the experience they had. Lack of knowledge for diving in a cold water lake is something you could pin on them, however they went to a dive shop instead of just jumping in together.
So the shop's job was to educate and guide them. More specifically, it was the dive pro's job. The dive pro flaked in his preparations. Wrong wetsuits, tanks that were too small. Nothing has been written about education in altitude diving.

I am taking students out in about two to three months. Their knowledge will be nothing more than indoor pool experience. The water outside will be bordering around 16 degrees Celsius, just good enough for 7+5 mil wetsuits. It's my job to watch their backs, get them under water and get them safely out with a big smile on their face.

And it doesn't matter that my students are doing Open Water dive one. The experience will be the same for a diver with 25 warm water dives under his or her belt. Any single one of them might panic. My job is to handle that, and if it happens I will handle that. If fear of litigation stops you from doing that job, you have no business teaching. If you leave that inexperienced diver behind, like this instructor did.......you're incompetent.

Yes, you can blame the deceased for not ditching his weightbelt, not inflating his bcd and panicking under water. Lack of training? Maybe. So, train him. Make him a better diver. Something that is not done by over-weighting a diver in a too-thin wetsuit with a tiny tank strapped to his back. The instructor paved the way to panic.

Hi Miyaru,

You said one thing that was very profound: "So, train him." Yes, sign him up for classes that relate to diving in that environment. Train him in a formal way.

markm

 

[kafkaland]

Hi Miyaru,

You said one thing that was very profound: "So, train him." Yes, sign him up for classes that relate to diving in that environment. Train him in a formal way.

markm

I don't think such a clear-cut distinction between a formal class with set standards and a for-hire buddy can be made in all cases, nor should it. Sure, there are the obvious ends of the spectrum, but in practice there is a lot in between. When someone hires an instructor to take him on his first boat dive, or cold-water dive, or dive with a pony bottle, and clearly states so, the implicit assumption is that some training will happen. Or what about someone who hires an instructor for a coaching session on, let's say DSMB deployment? Then then the teaching expectation is very explicit, even though there are no standards, nor a c-card.

 

[CT-Rich]

When you see people take a small plane “ try it” flight with an instructor. Renting a snorkel tour or a try it dive in the tropics it always means putting you life in other peoples hands... These people paid for a “so called professional”, the same way you do when you get in a taxi, a plane or a bus. If the bus driver goes off a cliff through stupidity, you sue him if he walks away and your husband doesn’t. Don’t blame the neophyte that realized they needed additional help with a single dive any more than guy who decides he needs a cab. They hired him. Does the neophyte hold some responsibility? Yes they freaked out fatally in the cold and dark on the bottom of the lake. They hired a guide who was incompetent. Of course her husband is dead.... so I guess they aren’t getting off Scot-free.

The trial was about the instructor’s culpability, not theirs.

Hi Bierstadt,

I think you have a valid opinion, I just don't agree with it.

I am a cynical guy. Relying on some unknown so-called professional with my life does not work for me. I don't understand someone giving their lives to some moron. Natural selection works in different ways. People who tell me to "trust me" aren't worthy of my trust.

markm

 

[Schwob]

The trial was about the instructor’s culpability, not theirs

Fair reminder there...

 

[markmud]

When you see people take a small plane “ try it” flight with an instructor. Renting a snorkel tour or a try it dive in the tropics it always means putting you life in other peoples hands... These people paid for a “so called professional”, the same way you do when you get in a taxi, a plane or a bus. If the bus driver goes off a cliff through stupidity, you sue him if he walks away and your husband doesn’t. Don’t blame the neophyte that realized they needed additional help with a single dive any more than guy who decides he needs a cab. They hired him. Does the neophyte hold some responsibility? Yes they freaked out fatally in the cold and dark on the bottom of the lake. They hired a guide who was incompetent. Of course her husband is dead.... so I guess they aren’t getting off Scot-free.

The trial was about the instructor’s culpability, not theirs.

Hi CT,

First off, I am not blaming the neophyte--I have great empathy for them. What a horrible situation.

I disagree with you. I am trying to impart that people who blindly follow someone are culpable in whatever happens to them.

Your argument is not relative to the discussion. As a master mariner, I was trained, tested, and retested to perform the job. Our insurance company reviewed my credentials. I had a track record of successful voyages. I was FBI background checked, every 5 years. If I had received one DUI, the USCG was notified. I had to pass physical exams including eye and hearing exams on a regular basis. I had to undergo recurring professional training on a regular basis. I attended a Maritime Academy (college).

My brother-in-law is an American Airlines pilot. Same type of issues. He has mandatory retraining protocols. He attended Annapolis and trained in Pensacola to become a naval aviator.

Don't compare us to a skiff skipper who takes a few people snorkeling. Or a bus driver who takes you from one end of the airport to the other.

And, yes my head is on a swivel when I am getting a ride on a skiff to go diving. My wife and I caused a dive charter to be cancelled at boarding time because the crew was abusing vessel. We were not going 28 miles to sea with them--the other passengers followed our lead and gave the operator a thumbs-down.

Yes, when you dive with an unknown instructor, performing dives that you are not trained for, you should make sure that a thorough dive briefing takes place and make sure that you will not be doing anything that you are not comfortable with.

SOME OF THE SO-CALLED DIVE PROFESSIONALS THAT I HAVE DIVED WITH WERE NIETHER PROFESSIONEL NOR GOOD DIVERS! I HAVE FOUND A FEW TRUE PROFESSIONAL MARINERS OPERATING DIVE BOATS.

However, the true professional divers and mariners that I have dived with were a pleasure to be with and are highly respected by me. Respect is earned, not given.

TO ITERATE:

I feel that the sentence handed down to the DM/instructor was warranted. He now has a conviction on his record and has to pay a fine. No need to send him to the big house.

"The trial was about the instructor’s culpability, not theirs." CT Rich. Does that knowledge make the GF feel any better? Is the decedent going to come back to life? To bad their heads were not on a swivel before the dive.

"They hired a guide who was incompetent." CT Rich. Your honor, the defense rests as the plaintiff's attorney just proved my case. "They hired..."

I am approaching 60 years old. I am still alive because of luck, and because my head is on a swivel!

markm

 

[markmud]

I don't think such a clear-cut distinction between a formal class with set standards and a for-hire buddy can be made in all cases, nor should it. Sure, there are the obvious ends of the spectrum, but in practice there is a lot in between. When someone hires an instructor to take him on his first boat dive, or cold-water dive, or dive with a pony bottle, and clearly states so, the implicit assumption is that some training will happen. Or what about someone who hires an instructor for a coaching session on, let's say DSMB deployment? Then then the teaching expectation is very explicit, even though there are no standards, nor a c-card.

Hi Kafkaland,

I agree that this is not clear-cut. We are discussing a big issue that has many tentacles on a forum designed for brevity. Issues that you raise are valid.

Unfortunately, I have not found dive professionals who are willing to train-in-passing. Pros have liability issues to deal with. Due diligence requires that a professional prove that his trainees followed a set training regimen. Usually that manifests itself with classroom or book training, dry training, and then wet training. Have you noticed that instructors keep test documents for their records? Smart ones do. If sued, an instructor needs to prove that an industry approved training curriculum was followed.

I am not an instructor, but I have been told this and I have observed it.

I enjoyed your post and the opportunity to communicate with you,
markm

 

[CT-Rich]

Hi CT,

First off, I am not blaming the neophyte--I have great empathy for them. What a horrible situation.

I disagree with you. I am trying to impart that people who blindly follow someone are culpable in whatever happens to them.

Your argument is not relative to the discussion. As a master mariner, I was trained, tested, and retested to perform the job. Our insurance company reviewed my credentials. I had a track record of successful voyages. I was FBI background checked, every 5 years. If I had received one DUI, the USCG was notified. I had to pass physical exams including eye and hearing exams on a regular basis. I had to undergo recurring professional training on a regular basis. I attended a Maritime Academy (college).

My brother-in-law is an American Airlines pilot. Same type of issues. He has mandatory retraining protocols. He attended Annapolis and trained in Pensacola to become a naval aviator.

Don't compare us to a skiff skipper who takes a few people snorkeling. Or a bus driver who takes you from one end of the airport to the other.

And, yes my head is on a swivel when I am getting a ride on a skiff to go diving. My wife and I caused a dive charter to be cancelled at boarding time because the crew was abusing vessel. We were not going 28 miles to sea with them--the other passengers followed our lead and gave the operator a thumbs-down.

Yes, when you dive with an unknown instructor, performing dives that you are not trained for, you should make sure that a thorough dive briefing takes place and make sure that you will not be doing anything that you are not comfortable with.

SOME OF THE SO-CALLED DIVE PROFESSIONALS THAT I HAVE DIVED WITH WERE NIETHER PROFESSIONEL NOR GOOD DIVERS! I HAVE FOUND A FEW TRUE PROFESSIONAL MARINERS OPERATING DIVE BOATS.

However, the true professional divers and mariners that I have dived with were a pleasure to be with and are highly respected by me. Respect is earned, not given.

TO ITERATE:

I feel that the sentence handed down to the DM/instructor was warranted. He now has a conviction on his record and has to pay a fine. No need to send him to the big house.

"The trial was about the instructor’s culpability, not theirs." CT Rich. Does that knowledge make the GF feel any better? Is the decedent going to come back to life? To bad their heads were not on a swivel before the dive.

"They hired a guide who was incompetent." CT Rich. Your honor, the defense rests as the plaintiff's attorney just proved my case. "They hired..."

I am approaching 60 years old. I am still alive because of luck, and because my head is on a swivel!

markm

Hi, I was not going after you, I apologize if it came across that way. Unfortunately, the average consumer has limited ability to judge the competency of an instructor any more than they are capable of judging the competency of a dentist. As an experienced diver, I would hopefully be able to identify a competent boatsman and make an informed judgement about the level of trust I should impart his suggestions. A couple with 25 warm water dives may not have had the tools. The dive was a gift, so someone else (possibly with more or even less knowledge) picked the shop.

When you go for a colonoscopy, how much head swiveling can you do? Your GP makes a recommendation, the person has a certain level of accreditation. But all the beside manner gives no indication how good the guy actually is at running a proctoscope.