Insights from Rescue for BP/W users

[Sideband]

I know Rescue says to remove the gear, it's not my intention to undermine that. But, can someone tell me from a CPR standpoint WHY? I thought it was just a drag issue (until you reach the boat)
And can someone tell me why you would remove an unconscious person's flotation?

First, the gear has to come off at some point, either in the water or on land/boat. CPR requires the victim to be laying flat on their back. It is easier to slide the victim out of the gear in the water and makes them lighter and easier to cary onto shore or haul into a boat where CPR can begin.
Second, if the victim is wearing a wet suit with dropped weights and no tank they should be plenty positive. Even a dry suit would probably be positive from air expansion during the ascent still lofting the underwear. You aren't removing their flotation. You are reducing drag, reducing weight and prepairing for the next phase of the rescue.

Joe

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I bought my first BP/wing rig long before I heard of DIR.
It just looked right and felt comfy.
I took my PADI rescue class in it (about a year or so before fundy's)and my instructor went verbally bizerk,used me as a "what not to wear" example and ridiculed me in front of my kid....before we had the "TALK".
I ended up feeling sad that I embarressed my kid.No kid needs to see that.
If I could do it over I would have better screened the instructor and done the class after fundy's.
YMMV.
Andy

I guess the question I would have for any student who gets "talked" to by an instructor in that manner is this ... why would you put up with it? About two seconds into "verbally bizerk" I'd have found a creative way to let the guy know that I don't pay money to get abuse.

C'mon ... really. Forget about the fact that it's unprofessional ... you are the customer ... and you're paying the instructor to provide you knowledge and skills, not use you for personal ego gratification.

My advice to any diver ... if your instructor cannot treat you in a professional, respectful manner, get a different instructor ... because that one doesn't deserve your trust.

A Rescue course shouldn't be about personal preference ... yours or theirs. The reality is that you need to learn how to deal with this gear ... because even if you're not wearing it, the person you might have to rescue could be.

Almost all commercially available scuba gear is incredibly safe to dive in. Therefore it boils down to personal preference. Every piece of gear you can own has positives and negatives. An instructor's job should be to tell you what those positives and negatives are in as non-judgmental a manner as possible, and assume you are smart enough to weigh them against your personal goals and decide for yourself what's right for you.

After all, for the most part scuba students are adults ... we're all capable of making rational decisions.

Some of the stuff I hear coming from instructors (including some on this board) just make me shake my head and wonder how the CD's who certified these people ever justified putting them in such a position of responsibility ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

An instructor's job should be to tell you what those positives and negatives are in as non-judgmental a manner as possible

I think my instructors are trying very hard to do that. It is abundantly clear (and I knew it before the class) that, in THEIR minds, the downsides of the gear I am using outweigh the benefits. But I am not stupid, and my choice to go with the gear I have was based on many factors. The small issue of rescuer unfamiliarity is not a big deal for me. First of all, I intend to conduct my diving behavior so as to minimize the likelihood that anybody will have to rescue me. Second, in the circumstances I hope to dive in where a rescue MIGHT be necessary, I will be diving with people for whom all of my equipment is utterly familiar.

I still think the basic lesson is valid: Be sure your buddy is fully familiar with your gear -- not just generally, but specifically: How do your weights release? Where are the releases (if any) on your BC and how do they work? If you don't have releases, what is the best strategy for removing your equipment? What tools are you carrying, and where are you carrying them? And recognize that, if your gear is well out of the mainstream, one of the risks you assume is that the random diver coming upon you in distress (and no, that situation should NEVER occur if you dive with the right buddies, but . . .) may not be able to manage you and your equipment in an optimal fashion.

 

[rockjock3]

Care to reference that one? I don't know about the other agencies but using a BP/wing during ANY PADI course is A.O.K.

I second that. I went through rescue and they didn't say a thing about almost half the class being in BP/W setups.

We even had one guy that used a BP/W in my OW last year. No problems and nothing PADI forbids.


I would also venture that an instructor can't deny a customer any training based on their desired equipment configuration unless it was spelled out by PADI as not being allowed. I would further venture to say that if someone were to suggest that one can I would quickly turn around and say yes he/she could but could also quickly lose their instructor status once reported to PADI by that individual for refusing training for this kind of reason.

 

[Peter Guy]

Just a note from "Hubby" -- I'm very glad she's wearing the BP/W in the class and I think our instructors are also glad (and I'm quite sure the other students are glad!). In any event, NONE of us (4 students, 5 Instructors/DM's/AI's) have the same gear so it is different for each and every one of us.

What has been the best learning experience so far is HOW DIFFERENT the configurations are -- BP/W, Jacket, Back Inflate, Wt Belts, Integrated, necklace 2ndary, Air2's (different types), and on. So even though the BP/W is the least common for us, NONE of the rigs are "common."

Query for some -- I don't understand the statements about being careful about dumping weights in the pool. We have just been pulling the wts -- integrated or belt and dropping it ASAP -- and hope the OW students aren't below us! (Truth to tell, they are in a different part of the pool but sometimes they wander....)

 

[PacketSniffer]

I'll go you one further.

In the water we dive in conditions are cold enough to allow for a chance at a cold-water post-drowning recucitation. Clearly, neither PADI nor any other credentialled dive training service is going to get into the specifics of such an event, but I know, and I suspect many people diving in the PNW know, that even a non-breathing, arrested diver has a chance if they can be dragged to shore or onto a boat fast enough after an in-water disaster unlike the situation that obtains in warmer climates.
Ryan

Actually, SSI Stress/Rescue touches on this topic and makes it clear that a cold water drowning victim does indeed have a chance.

Richard

 

[BabyDuck]

Query for some -- I don't understand the statements about being careful about dumping weights in the pool. We have just been pulling the wts -- integrated or belt and dropping it ASAP -- and hope the OW students aren't below us! (Truth to tell, they are in a different part of the pool but sometimes they wander....)

weights have been known to chip the concrete or break the tiles or whatever lining the pool. lots of places won't let you actually 'drop' weights but make you keep hold of them & pretend. i know that was true in my ow.

plus i guess you could bean someone, but of course the pool is the more important part!

 

[PacketSniffer]

I have always thought it was sorta iffy to remove someone's flotation if they were not conscious. Very counterintuitive to me.

Maybe I have misunderstood. Are you saying that there is an agency that prescribes removing a BCD (BP/W or Vest) in water for rescue???


Richard

 

[scwdive]

I've had a few bpw's now in my rescue classes (usually SSI - but the letters don't matter). With the idea that skills should work under any reasonable circumstance (I think bpw's are very reasonable) we've worked out a method that also seems reasonable, and does not damage equipment (some might want the equipment intact for later investigation and possible insite into the accident's possible causes). Way long time ago when stab jackets were very popular we used to "chicken wing" the victim out. With a bit of practice, my 110lb student was able to comfortably remove the bpw in two breath cycles (1 cycle = 2 breaths then 15 count - that's just how we do it here).

Drop all weights.

If the victim is larger, rest their head on your shoulder (right one seems to work best, but we've been sucessful from either side). If you run your right arm under the back of their neck you can cradle the head next to yours and have control (most important, always have control of the head.

You may have to add air to your BC to keep your head and the victims out of the water.

Roll the victim on side (easier if you let air out of their wing - this is tricky the wings add a bit of instability - but you've learned this)

Pull harness webbing on victim's left shoulder towards you for slack (if none, consider cutting rig, but their should be some play if fitted corectly)

Wiggle arm between webbing and body try to get up to forearm. This step can be difficult - this is called the "chicken wing" - it is the technique you most likely use to get your arm out now.

Pull arm through without losing control of head. Allowing the body to roll back to supine can help, sometimes.

Release waist buckle and float body out of crotch strap if you cannot pull it free.

In all things rescue, re-evaluate the event often and consider your alternatives.

We also wear shears, bright handles, next to our canisters, and mention it in the s-drill (a back up plan?).

Good Luck and Safe Diving.

 

[pakman]

TSandM, as always, you always manage to start some great threads!
When I took my PADI rescue course last year, I was in the opposite situation. I was using a traditional back inflate BCD and my instructor and the IE's who were sitting in as "victims" were all wearing various BP/W's. On other days, there would be others wearing standard BCD's, so it was a great (frustrating at first) learning experience in how to handle the various setups. (Little did I know I would be switching to a bp/w and start falling into technical training in a few months after...)

Since we're only wearing 3mm wetsuits out here vs a typical PNW drysuit, it wasn't too hard getting people out of their bp/w once I got taught how to put their hand under their shoulder strap and pull their arm thru. Although, it was a bit PITA with one IE with arnold schwarzenegger biceps... luckily he had clips on his bpw...

As for rec diving and "educating" others on a bpw setup, as others have mention, I make it a habit of explaining at the start of each dive with a new dive buddy during the buddy check on how I would pass the long hose to him/her in an OOA.