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ghostdiver1957:
Care to reference that one? I don't know about the other agencies but using a BP/wing during ANY PADI course is A.O.K.
Insights from Rescue for BP/W users
- Thread starter TSandM
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Care to reference that one? I don't know about the other agencies but using a BP/wing during ANY PADI course is A.O.K.
matt_unique
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You've hit upon a good example of where the hog rig is problematic. I chose the harness with the plastic quick release. I liked the convenience of getting out of my rig easier than the techniques required for the hog harness.
The plastic can break if it's smashed. The same thing applies to our regulators and several other pieces of gear. Otherwise the plastic parts are reliable and work well. As a test I unclipped my plastic release while in the water - I could barely tell the difference and could easily - without any inconvenience - finish a dive with a broken buckle. As you can imagine I completely disagree with the DIR "failure point" hysteria.
I recognize the value of simplicity in the hog rig - you can smash the entire harness with a hammer and it will still work. I make my gear decisions based on the net balance of advantages vs. disadvantages.
Out of curiosity, how have you been able to participate in the gear removal drills?
--Matt
The plastic can break if it's smashed. The same thing applies to our regulators and several other pieces of gear. Otherwise the plastic parts are reliable and work well. As a test I unclipped my plastic release while in the water - I could barely tell the difference and could easily - without any inconvenience - finish a dive with a broken buckle. As you can imagine I completely disagree with the DIR "failure point" hysteria.
I recognize the value of simplicity in the hog rig - you can smash the entire harness with a hammer and it will still work. I make my gear decisions based on the net balance of advantages vs. disadvantages.
Out of curiosity, how have you been able to participate in the gear removal drills?
--Matt
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Upon further reflection...
... I suppose one could say that the PADI rescue course is "designed for the recreational diver wearing a BCD." After all, there is nada in the course materials that reference this type of gear.
But, there is nothing in the standards that would prevent taking... or teaching... the class in a BP and wing.
... I suppose one could say that the PADI rescue course is "designed for the recreational diver wearing a BCD." After all, there is nada in the course materials that reference this type of gear.
But, there is nothing in the standards that would prevent taking... or teaching... the class in a BP and wing.
I'll go you one further.
In the water we dive in conditions are cold enough to allow for a chance at a cold-water post-drowning recucitation. Clearly, neither PADI nor any other credentialled dive training service is going to get into the specifics of such an event, but I know, and I suspect many people diving in the PNW know, that even a non-breathing, arrested diver has a chance if they can be dragged to shore or onto a boat fast enough after an in-water disaster unlike the situation that obtains in warmer climates.
When I took my rescue course, I was in the back of my head ignoring most of what the instructors said about unclipping BCs. In our class alone we had at least a half dozen different configurations. In an emergency, I suspect I'm likely to be dealing with someone else's totally unfamiliar gear. Rather than wasting incredibly precious minutes in the water fiddling with quick releases, buckles. straps, fasteners of all kinds, etc., I'm cutting them out of their rigs ASAP. It's far more likely that I'll succeed in a quick bit of spontaneous butchery on their BCs than that random Joe Rescue Diver will be able to beat the clock when faced with the task of correctly undressing a diver in an emergency. Frankly, I wish that was how the course was taught. If I'm the diver in distress, I want those minutes used on CPR on the shore or the boat, not on someone trying to figure out how my crotch strap works. Cut first, breathe second, and ask about my rig after I've had a shot at recovery.
Ryan
In the water we dive in conditions are cold enough to allow for a chance at a cold-water post-drowning recucitation. Clearly, neither PADI nor any other credentialled dive training service is going to get into the specifics of such an event, but I know, and I suspect many people diving in the PNW know, that even a non-breathing, arrested diver has a chance if they can be dragged to shore or onto a boat fast enough after an in-water disaster unlike the situation that obtains in warmer climates.
When I took my rescue course, I was in the back of my head ignoring most of what the instructors said about unclipping BCs. In our class alone we had at least a half dozen different configurations. In an emergency, I suspect I'm likely to be dealing with someone else's totally unfamiliar gear. Rather than wasting incredibly precious minutes in the water fiddling with quick releases, buckles. straps, fasteners of all kinds, etc., I'm cutting them out of their rigs ASAP. It's far more likely that I'll succeed in a quick bit of spontaneous butchery on their BCs than that random Joe Rescue Diver will be able to beat the clock when faced with the task of correctly undressing a diver in an emergency. Frankly, I wish that was how the course was taught. If I'm the diver in distress, I want those minutes used on CPR on the shore or the boat, not on someone trying to figure out how my crotch strap works. Cut first, breathe second, and ask about my rig after I've had a shot at recovery.
Ryan
CameronMartz
Fitness Instructor
When I dove more frequently with divers unfamiliar with a BP/W, I always said, "If you have to get me out of my gear, here's my knife. Don't be shy- just cut the straps." The knife is worn dead center on the waist belt- you can't miss it. The tip is rounded to reduce the chance of injury when used to cut gear off me or another diver. It cuts harness webbing way easier and faster than any shears I have (I test them all on webbing to know that they'll do the job). It, and its five companions, came in a box at Walmart for about $8 or something.
As others have said, there shouldn't be any concern about which is your weight belt and which is your harness because a rescuer should be opening both buckles, anyway. You won't get pulled out of your harness if that's opened first, so there's really no concern here. Right-hand-release is what everyone knows, and it doesn't need to change for the harness.
If a rescuer must remove your gear in the water, it has really hit the fan. If you're not confident that the people you're diving with are capable of cutting you from your gear after simple, verbal instruction, then you're in much worse trouble than you think. <g>
Cameron
As others have said, there shouldn't be any concern about which is your weight belt and which is your harness because a rescuer should be opening both buckles, anyway. You won't get pulled out of your harness if that's opened first, so there's really no concern here. Right-hand-release is what everyone knows, and it doesn't need to change for the harness.
If a rescuer must remove your gear in the water, it has really hit the fan. If you're not confident that the people you're diving with are capable of cutting you from your gear after simple, verbal instruction, then you're in much worse trouble than you think. <g>
Cameron
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TSands: I wonder what happens if you "half deflate (or more) his back bladder" I wonder if you made him ...more "boggy" if he would still roll? It sounds like he is your regular buddy so that the only reason I am wondering... You have brought up some great points. I took my rescue before switching to this BC. (I love the trim/hover it affords with a big camera, I love the long hose, because we like to have options on the ascent timing and share air casually, definitely not DIR)
Ghostdiver just offers one more perspective that is legit because they are out there. There are divers that believe, like him, that we have no business in this equipment. So, I think its better to hear them out than shut them down. (not meaning you, just generically) You are very bright. I think you should just continue to ask all these questions and then just decide every thing for yourself. That may collide with DIR at some point. Hard fast rules can be limiting. I like to think my style is...hybrid. A fusion of anything I encounter that I deam "a good thing".
I know Rescue says to remove the gear, it's not my intention to undermine that. But, can someone tell me from a CPR standpoint WHY? I thought it was just a drag issue (until you reach the boat)
And can someone tell me why you would remove an unconscious person's flotation?
Ghostdiver just offers one more perspective that is legit because they are out there. There are divers that believe, like him, that we have no business in this equipment. So, I think its better to hear them out than shut them down. (not meaning you, just generically) You are very bright. I think you should just continue to ask all these questions and then just decide every thing for yourself. That may collide with DIR at some point. Hard fast rules can be limiting. I like to think my style is...hybrid. A fusion of anything I encounter that I deam "a good thing".
I know Rescue says to remove the gear, it's not my intention to undermine that. But, can someone tell me from a CPR standpoint WHY? I thought it was just a drag issue (until you reach the boat)
And can someone tell me why you would remove an unconscious person's flotation?
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rsdancey:
All together now...
... "They're not dead until they're warm and dead!"
Ishie
Guest
Bingo. If I'm in a state where I desperately need to be removed from my gear, they can shred anything they like, and if I'm diving with someone whose life depends on my removing their gear, I don't really care what they're wearing. Learned that during EMT training, I learned that. Nothing is spared the wrath of the blade. I'll cut someone out of a rented, chlorine soaked, 50$ BC and I'll cut someone out of a $10K tech rig.
I'm getting ready to take the rescue class soon. I could see some benefit to in water breathing, I suppose, but maybe I'll figure it out during the class, but I can't figure out how you would get CPR to work?? Where's the hard surface? Pin em to the bottom? I can't imagine compressions at the surface having any benefit at all. They only have a 30% success rate on land.
I'm getting ready to take the rescue class soon. I could see some benefit to in water breathing, I suppose, but maybe I'll figure it out during the class, but I can't figure out how you would get CPR to work?? Where's the hard surface? Pin em to the bottom? I can't imagine compressions at the surface having any benefit at all. They only have a 30% success rate on land.
Stephen Ash:
How about Skin Diver and Discover Snorkeling!!! HA!!!
