Innovation in diving

[gianaameri]

I'll bite...pool is not an overhead, confined space. You did not have direct access to the surface. Find me a 12 meter deep pool that is an overhead environment and I might agree.

Anything can happen even in a pool. Do you need changes in a pool, no. In a cave, yes, with exception to you I guess. Your argument of pool comparison is silly.

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Yes, in a cave you need redundancy of the equipment you require for the dive because you are in an overhead environment, while in a pool or OW it is accepted that you do not need the same degree of redundancy.

As much is clear.

My point is that I planned the dive to take place in an environment where I could not have gone into deco given the amount of gas I carried.

Had I gone or planned to go in the 22 meter deep section of the cave where it stays deep for a significant length, that would have taken me beyond the 12 meter average depth instead I planned the dive for, and indeed a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer would have been indispensable (i.e. "no bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive").

 

[TONY CHANEY]

You should not even dare to bring pool diving into this discussion. It is not even close and a cheap shot at justifying your mistake. So even deep OW dives do not need the same redundancy? There are no diving agencies or groups that will condone what you did.
So there were sections in the system that were deeper than your guesstimated average depth of 12 meters? If that is true then you made two piss poor mistakes. 1) Deciding to dive without a bottom timer and depth guage and 2) doing the same in an unknown area of the cave.
Another tip from Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

 

[azhar]

What you all guys are arguing about? It was a plain dumb decision of getting in OH environment without redundancy. Drills and emergency procedures are NOT an excuse for one to enter an OH environment without them.
But hey even certified cave divers once in while get consumed by their experience and ego and die! That's why a good instructor at OWD level always demand you to make a check list and pack accordingly!

 

[gianaameri]

You should not even dare to bring pool diving into this discussion. It is not even close and a cheap shot at justifying your mistake. So even deep OW dives do not need the same redundancy? There are no diving agencies or groups that will condone what you did.
So there were sections in the system that were deeper than your guesstimated average depth of 12 meters? If that is true then you made two piss poor mistakes. 1) Deciding to dive without a bottom timer and depth guage and 2) doing the same in an unknown area of the cave.
Another tip from Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

1) Deciding to dive without a bottom timer and depth gauge when it is impossible (and this is the hard bit for you to comprehend) to enter into deco can be done because by definition you don't need Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.
2) The unknown area of the cave in this case is a 50 meter long straight line leading from the main line at a depth of 11 meters into a dry-chamber to 0 meters at an angle of 70 degrees which I had dived before except the last bit (I had never actually entered the dry chamber).

You take a very militaristic (typical of "regulars") and myopic view, but indeed 99.99999% of the times "No bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive."

In this specific case, it did not serve any purpose and I am trained that "there is always a solution" and to think outside the box (typical of "irregulars").

Of course if I had Dive Computer/Bottom Timer and I had not forgotten it, I would have brought both along as a matter of course without even thinking about it (by habit and training).

 

[steady1570]

1) Deciding to dive without a bottom timer and depth gauge when it is impossible (and this is the hard bit for you to comprehend) to enter into deco can be done because by definition you don't need Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

Upfront, I am not a cave diver, but basic maths tells me that the average depth is calculated from the amount of time spent at each specific depth over the course of the dive. If you had no accurate way of measuring time (1001, 1002… is not accurate) then you cannot say with certainty what your average depth was. At the extreme, what would have happened if you had lost consciousness at the 18m point? Of course assuming that you kept your regulator in etc, how would you then be able to calculate the time spent? You could use your know SAC and gas consumption I suppose, but is that accurate enough? When unconscious were you breathing at your normal rate (I think you said 22ltr / min earlier?) or were you more “relaxed” and this dropped? Whilst I agree you can spend as long as you want (almost) at 12m, 22ltr / min SAC and 2x18ltr tanks @ 220bar lets you stay at 18m for ~130mins – a quick run through Baltic Planner gives 12mins deco for that. Drop the SAC to 17 and you are at over 160mins for 25mins deco. I know this is a vast over-simplification and quite unrealistic in the real world, but you did say there was no way of going into deco.

Whilst I agree that for all practical purposes you were “safe” in your lack of BT, I think admitting that it was in retrospect probably a foolish idea isn’t a bad plan. Even the best get complacent in familiar environments sometimes and reassessing one's thought processes now and again is a good thing.

Mark

 

[tursiops]

I think admitting that it was in retrospect probably a foolish idea isn’t a bad plan. Even the best get complacent in familiar environments sometimes and reassessing one's thought processes now and again is a good thing.

Mark

You forget who you are talking to! Gianaameri never admits a mistake. You have to laugh, though, when you read his signature line: "skill and experience are not an acceptable substitute for proper equipment".

 

[gianaameri]

Upfront, I am not a cave diver, but basic maths tells me that the average depth is calculated from the amount of time spent at each specific depth over the course of the dive. If you had no accurate way of measuring time (1001, 1002… is not accurate) then you cannot say with certainty what your average depth was. At the extreme, what would have happened if you had lost consciousness at the 18m point? Of course assuming that you kept your regulator in etc, how would you then be able to calculate the time spent? You could use your know SAC and gas consumption I suppose, but is that accurate enough? When unconscious were you breathing at your normal rate (I think you said 22ltr / min earlier?) or were you more “relaxed” and this dropped? Whilst I agree you can spend as long as you want (almost) at 12m, 22ltr / min SAC and 2x18ltr tanks @ 220bar lets you stay at 18m for ~130mins – a quick run through Baltic Planner gives 12mins deco for that. Drop the SAC to 17 and you are at over 160mins for 25mins deco. I know this is a vast over-simplification and quite unrealistic in the real world, but you did say there was no way of going into deco.

Whilst I agree that for all practical purposes you were “safe” in your lack of BT, I think admitting that it was in retrospect probably a foolish idea isn’t a bad plan. Even the best get complacent in familiar environments sometimes and reassessing one's thought processes now and again is a good thing.

Mark

Unconscious at 18 meters solo =dead.

Deco not an issue.

Dive Computer/Bottom Timer would have been of no use.

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[steady1570]

Unconscious at 18 meters solo =dead.

Deco not an issue.

Dive Computer/Bottom Timer would have been of no use.

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Ok, then disoriented and confused or deep in a Zen-like calm… point is that without a timer you cannot state conclusively that your average depth was 12m (and therefore there are situations, albeit unlikely that you could go into deco).

Probably time to move on in this thread, but as I’ve recently moved away from the coast at least it’s had me thinking about what compromises I would be willing to make to my routine in order to dive, particularly if long travel times / high expenses are involved, and what I can do to avoid having to make those decisions.

 

[nimoh]

Ok, then disoriented and confused or deep in a Zen-like calm… point is that without a timer you cannot state conclusively that your average depth was 12m (and therefore there are situations, albeit unlikely that you could go into deco).

Probably time to move on in this thread, but as I’ve recently moved away from the coast at least it’s had me thinking about what compromises I would be willing to make to my routine in order to dive, particularly if long travel times / high expenses are involved, and what I can do to avoid having to make those decisions.

I think he is arguing that his skill and experience in this cave is an acceptable substitute for a bottom timer and depth gauge.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

1) Deciding to dive without a bottom timer and depth gauge when it is impossible (and this is the hard bit for you to comprehend) to enter into deco can be done because by definition you don't need Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.
2) The unknown area of the cave in this case is a 50 meter long straight line leading from the main line at a depth of 11 meters into a dry-chamber to 0 meters at an angle of 70 degrees which I had dived before except the last bit (I had never actually entered the dry chamber).

You take a very militaristic (typical of "regulars") and myopic view, but indeed 99.99999% of the times "No bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive."

In this specific case, it did not serve any purpose and I am trained that "there is always a solution" and to think outside the box (typical of "irregulars").

Of course if I had Dive Computer/Bottom Timer and I had not forgotten it, I would have brought both along as a matter of course without even thinking about it (by habit and training).

Still just too funny. Please don't worry about making your piss poor decisions. You have already shown to bend / break rules and learn nothing from it. Soon there will be more rules that you will bend / break until one day it bends or breaks you. At this point I give the father and son who died in the cave at EN on Christmas day more credit than I give you. They were ignorant to the strick demands that cave diving commands. You are just stupid because you know better and chose to ignore the rules.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2014 at 12:00 PM ----------

I think he is arguing that his skill and experience in this cave is an acceptable substitute for a bottom timer and depth gauge.

Yes he is and yes he is wrong.