Vessel Indo Siren Fire?

[boulderjohn]

Certification or not, your safety largely hinges on whether the crew has the knowledge, skills, training and equipment to effectively respond to an emergency. That plus the overall engagement and commitment by the operator sets the tone for each trip...

Yep. The investigation of the Conception fire showed that the crew was never put through the required fire-fighting training. It showed that crew members during the fire ran back and forth next to hoses that could have been used to fight the fire, but they did not know anything about them. That training would not have cost them a dime.

On my last liveaboard trip, when we were introduced to the crew, we were told we would rarely see one of them, because his duties had been structured so that he could do many of them at night, when he was also the official roving watch. He would be sleeping through much of the day. Our understanding was that it was just a matter of restructuring his duties, so it would not have cost them a dime.

The Conception bunk room had triple-decker bunks, with only a couple feet between the top bunk and the ceiling. The ceiling over one of them is where they put the emergency escape hatch. Think about it. It would take a contortionist to get out quickly, and one portly passenger would have plugged the escape for everyone. The boat was not full for the fateful fire, and my understanding is that it was rarely 100% full. The annual cost of the lost revenue for replacing that bunk area with a decent ladder would have been negligible.

My last liveaboard trip featured a fireproof charging station with ample outlets and plenty of space for everything being charged. That would be a one-time cost that might have resulted in an almost negligible per customer cost for the first year only.

Those basic safety features should be an expectation of any boat at any price.

 

[Kendall Raine]

The customer base is to blame, for demanding low safety standards in exchange for low prices.

Apropos, I rarely see any reference to fire safety (exits, night watches, fire briefings, etc.) in Undercurrent and SB LOB reviews-my reviews may be the exception. I consider Undercurrent and SB far more valuable than dive magazine puff pieces so the fact so few reviewers mention these matters may-to your point-reflect a lack (?!) of diver awareness for this facet of LOB operations. However, in many cases the reviews are for high end LOBs so it may be worse than just divers consciously accepting poor safety measures for price concessions. It may be an mental blind spot.

If true, there is no excuse for it. Divers need to WTFU and use economic leverage to effect change. The incidents of LOB fires (Red Sea in particular) but also US, Philippines, Indonesia (anyone remember the Waow?) are ample evidence that LOBs catch fire and, once started, often burn to the bilge.

On a personal note, at my age getting up in the middle of the night is a fact of life. I use that time to take a quick walk around the boat to see if anyone is up. So far so good, but the captain will definitely hear about it if I don't see anyone awake in the middle of the night.

I hear from other divers they take CO/smoke monitors with them on LOB trips. These are inexpensive and a basic investment in one's personal safety.

 

[ontdiver]

I would be surprised to hear that anyone knowingly accepts poor safety measures as the trade off for an inexpensive LOB trip.

While some may book a trip blindly, I believe the vast majority do some basic research in this space to weigh pros and cons of a number of factors.

Admittedly, safety is a hard one to assess, though, as you presume that everything is OK in the absence of any problems. But in the wake of recent incidents it is apparent that more and more divers are packing go bags and upping their situational awareness.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would be surprised to hear that anyone knowingly accepts poor safety measures as the trade off for an inexpensive LOB trip.

How is a potential passenger to know ahead of time that the ship will not have a required roving night watch? How can they know the emergency exit will be blocked by a sleeping crew member? The boats to not usually mention those policies in their brochures.

 

[Wookie]

Great question. I would like to see a SOLAS-certified liveboard explain exactly what the certification entails and therefore why the trip cost carries a premium.

Full SOLAS for a liveaboard is a herculean task to obtain at the price point to be competitive with livaboards who neither require nor desire full SOLAS.

Full SOLAS for Passenger vessels carrying more than 12 passengers on overnight voyages requires a number of administrative measures including:

1) Safety Management System
2) Passenger Vessel Safety Certificate
3) Certificate of Inspection

Rather than me copying and pasting, spend the rest of the day yourself reading up. I have a Master's Degree in this stuff and I wouldn't try to teach anyone SOLAS.

Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) & Convention for Prevention of Marine Pollution (MARPOL): A General Overview

Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) and Convention for Prevention of Marine Pollution (MARPOL) stands as two solid pillars that support the maritime industry.

www.marineinsight.com

Having run SOLAS vessels as Chief Engineer as well as Port Engineer, it's easily a crew of 10-12 to run a vessel of 20 passengers, as well as another 4-5 shoreside.

Oh, and all records available must match the records on the ship, real time. With Starlink, it becomes a bit less expensive.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Admittedly, safety is a hard one to assess, though, as you presume that everything is OK in the absence of any problems.

I suspect some of us have an image in our minds of liveaboards as mini cruise ships or large private yachts. We don't realize liveaboards are not subject to the same safety requirements as cruise ships, and we probably don't even know what safety requirements cruise ships have, though we might remember having to do a lifeboat drill; most cruise ship safety requirements are not so apparent to the casual cruise-shipper. Private yachts are smaller and more readily overseen by the crew than most liveaboards; you don't have 20 people charging batteries. My thinking is that liveboards are the "just wrong size" from a safety perspective.

 

[ontdiver]

Just thinking, but would there be merit in creating a "Safety" Forum to capture some of the issues that have been discussed? Perhaps as a sub forum under Accidents and Incidents?

Having a separate space would raise the profile of safety issues and allow divers to make a better informed choice. It might also catch attention of operators who may recognize opportunity to up their game and bookings by committing to enhanced safety practices.

 

[dmaziuk]

My last liveaboard trip featured a fireproof charging station with ample outlets and plenty of space for everything being charged. That would be a one-time cost that might have resulted in an almost negligible per customer cost for the first year only.

Have you checked the wiring? Normally any number of "ample" 15A outlets are all hanging off a single 14-ga (if you're lucky) wire terminated at a single 15A (if you're lucky) breaker. Give it a thinner wire, or a bigger breaker, and fireproofing the charging station won't do squat because the fire's gonna start in the walls.

 

[Kendall Raine]

Just thinking, but would there be merit in creating a "Safety" Forum to capture some of the issues that have been discussed? Perhaps as a sub forum under Accidents and Incidents?

Having a separate space would raise the profile of safety issues and allow divers to make a better informed choice. It might also catch attention of operators who may recognize opportunity to up their game and bookings by committing to enhanced safety practices.

I think that's a very good idea if only to raise diver consciousness. When I booked my last LOB I checked the deck plans to determine if there was a second exit from below decks (the outside deck, not the salon). I also wrote the owner to ask about fire safety (detectors, Li Ion battery charging protocol, fire watch, etc).

I think the best defense against fire is a layered defense (detectors, an alert trained crew, multiple exits, things like fire balls and other suppression devices, CCTV to name a few) since any one system can be defeated. How many traveling divers even know (ask) if these defenses exist when they book, much less board? Your forum idea might increase the portion of divers who at least think about it.

 

[Scubagolf]

Master mentioned in their statement they will be contacting all guests. Looks like the boat is lost unfortunately, but I'm sure they will try to get you on another so you can still go to Raja. Your group leader will no doubt hear shortly.

BTW Palau Siren still going strong. She launched in 2012, think there was a bit on the reef in 2016 but she was refloated and fixed. All good. Friends went on her in August

We were on the Palau Siren in 2013. Great boat and crew.