Independent Doubles!

[Sas]

I was the same with the SPG, but I found it became a pain when carrying multiple stages.... it's part of that whole journey thing, what you did at the start doesn't often make sense until the end. Some people can just accept "this is the way it is", but I can't... and hated the "it will make sense when..." responses!

Haha yea that is what my instructor said too... I don't plan to be carrying multiple stages though, I will switch quite happily if it is a problem then if I ever do that (unlikely)

I don't like the answer 'this is the way it is' at all but the last few instructors I have had (one BSAC one, and also my CDAA instructor) have always explained things in great detail to me, rather than comment like that so I understand that I might need to change equipment for different diving that I end up doing.

It's a great course, and you're spoilt for choice with both Nick Schoeffler and Steve Trewavas right on your doorstep. I only know Nick on nodding terms, but has a good reputation, and Steve is plain awesome! Well, he is a New Zealander!!

I don't know anything about Nick actually, I had planned to do the course with Steve Trewavas, but have no idea when. A friend has been organising it. A bit skint at the moment after my last course and a bunch of gear I have bought in the last few months

 

[Gombessa]

Gombessa you quoted me out of context by not including the rest of what I said, which is unfair. I don't think one should put on new gear and start doing difficult dives where new gear could cause problems due to unfamiliarity or poor placement etc. By trying out I mean in controlled conditons, a pool, a shallow dive, etc. I try out a lot of new gear under a pier to see what I think, for example.

My apologies, that wasn't my intent. However, I don't think the full quote changes my response at all:

There are always ways to improve on things but if one never tries new things they will never improve...

...Sorry, don't think that is a good analogue. There is no risk to trying out different bits of scuba gear and seeing what one likes (within reason and if you are borrowing it, which is what most people I know do before forking out cash) other than the risk of having an uncomfortable dive now and again. Not like playing the lotto, which is basically a tax on the stupid.

I play around with different gear as much as I can. Sometimes I've had some horribly uncomfortable dives due to some bad setup I've dived with, but overall my changes to my gear as a result of experimenting has improved my comfort when diving a great deal.

You downplay the risk of distraction and discomfort, which is fine as your personal take on the issue, but other reasonable people may see the balance of those risks differently, and I still don't think it's fair to say that tinkering with dive gear is wholly riskless except for discomfort, without considering the likely consequences of such.

Also, since we're talking about proper context, you never mentioned controlled conditions or confined water for trying new gear out. But even so, I wouldn't presume and didn't suggest that you promote trying out new gear immediately with difficult dives. Distractions, discomfort and reduced buddy awareness can be realistically considered risks even on "easy" and "shallow" dives, particularly since these are the types of dives that are known to allow for complacency. In comparison to giving away a dollar to a lottery, some would reasonably say a risk not worth the potential upside gain.

 

[Sas]

You downplay the risk of distraction and discomfort, which is fine as your personal take on the issue, but other reasonable people may see the balance of those risks differently, and I still don't think it's fair to say that tinkering with dive gear is wholly riskless except for discomfort, without considering the likely consequences of such.

How did you decide on your gear configuration then? Just wondering, I don't know how else to decide on gear other than researching it and trying it out, that's all.

Also, since we're talking about proper context, you never mentioned controlled conditions or confined water for trying new gear out. But even so, I wouldn't presume and didn't suggest that you promote trying out new gear immediately with difficult dives. Distractions, discomfort and reduced buddy awareness can be realistically considered risks even on "easy" and "shallow" dives, particularly since these are the types of dives that are known to allow for complacency. In comparison to giving away a dollar to a lottery, some would reasonably say a risk not worth the potential upside gain.

Well, apologies, I assumed it was implied, especially with the 'within reason' comment I made But fair point. I know they are risks just ones I think can be managed fine by almost every diver, assuming they are not complacent, but that can be a problem on dives with familiar gear too.

As I said, I really don't know how one is to figure out what they like without giving things a go. I think if one person wants to only dive a certain way without trying other things out, that's cool, but it doesn't leave them a lot to stand on when they start throwing out criticisms of how other people dive. I just think there is more than one way to go about doing things especially at the level most people dive at and the more I dive and the more divers I meet the more I think that.

 

[Gombessa]

How did you decide on your gear configuration then?

Well, by careful research and adoption of something that others have worked out and have substantially proven to be safe and effective. Though he may have responded in snark, as StreetDoctor said earlier, "if it's not broken, don't fix it." The way I dive works for the dives that I do, and hopefully works for the dives that I will do in the future. If for some reason it no longer does, I'll certainly look to change it. But that's in contrast to frequently "experimenting with," or "playing around with different gear as much as one can," so to speak, in a piecemeal manner and by my own reckoning (and I don't mean that in a frivolous, for-the-heck-of-it way, just in continually trying out new things on the chance they might be better). I tinker with software and electronics quite a bit, and I love the thrill of creating something new that works, but when it comes to putting myself a couple dozen meters under the sea, my risk profile is a bit more conservative than that.

I think if one person wants to only dive a certain way without trying other things out, that's cool, but it doesn't leave them a lot to stand on when they start throwing out criticisms of how other people dive.

For the record, read over the thread and you'll probably see that I'm arguing the point about risk, not stating my own personal beliefs or telling people what they're doing is a bad idea, whether it's diving independent doubles or experimenting with new gear.

 

[Sas]

Well, by careful research and adoption of something that others have worked out and have substantially proven to be safe and effective. Though he may have responded in snark, as StreetDoctor said earlier, "if it's not broken, don't fix it." The way I dive works for the dives that I do, and hopefully works for the dives that I will do in the future. If for some reason it no longer does, I'll certainly look to change it. But that's in contrast to frequently "experimenting with," or "playing around with different gear as much as one can," so to speak, in a piecemeal manner and by my own reckoning (and I don't mean that in a frivolous, for-the-heck-of-it way, just in continually trying out new things on the chance they might be better). I tinker with software and electronics quite a bit, and I love the thrill of creating something new that works, but when it comes to putting myself a couple dozen meters under the sea, my risk profile is a bit more conservative than that.

Fair enough We just have a different outlook on diving. I just can't go off what other people tell me, I have to try things for myself (as well as listen to advice of course, but ultimately I like to have done something for myself).

For the record, read over the thread and you'll probably see that I'm arguing the point about risk, not stating my own personal beliefs or telling people what they're doing is a bad idea, whether it's diving independent doubles or experimenting with new gear.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you at all, just in general, a comment.

 

[Gombessa]

Fair enough We just have a different outlook on diving. I just can't go off what other people tell me, I have to try things for myself (as well as listen to advice of course, but ultimately I like to have done something for myself).

Blech, sure you gotta try it out and make your own determination, that point just wasn't sufficiently encompassed in "research." My bad

Btw, big off-topic, but you mentioned you were going to take Fundies. I bet that if/when you do, you'll have 1,001 questions for your instructor on why you can't just do x, and challenge them as to why y is considered better than z. However, I bet if you ask, what you'll find is that the vast, vast majority of people who take these classes are like you in that respect--smart, independent thinkers who have gone through many of these same questions and issues, and because of their digging have eventually found their way to "DIR" and found that the system as developed makes sense for a reason, and is inherently scalable. There were literally no questions I asked that were answered "because that's the way it is." I find it ironic because there's always this "sheep" or "because my instructor said so" perception of the class by outsiders, who simply don't know how much rigorous thought many people will put in before adopting the system. You may not end up on the same side, but you'll definitely see to a much greater degree the "why" behind the "what," especially if you continue to ask the hard questions.

 

[DaleC]

I wonder what some rigs would look like if Bill Main, GI3, JJ and others just did things the way they were and never experimented. Just a thought for those willing to think it.

Big Philly, you've asked a lot of questions and I'll try to answer some of them if I can in the morning. I've got to hit the hay now.

 

[Gombessa]

I wonder what some rigs would look like if Bill Main, GI3, JJ and others just did things the way they were and never experimented. Just a thought for those willing to think it.

Or, where would they be if they decided these caves are too dangerous and just hung up their fins?

Experimentation is good and has its place, nobody is debating that. We're just clearing up the recognition of some level of risk involved, though it may be minimal for our kind of diving, and the personal decision underlying whether one can gain sufficient benefit from experimenting given the type of diving that they do. For most of us not doing expedition dives, I think the latter point really comes down to what you're personally looking for.

 

[AndyNZ]

I don't know anything about Nick actually, I had planned to do the course with Steve Trewavas, but have no idea when. A friend has been organising it.

Steve's a great guy, you'll have a blast when you do it.

I wonder what some rigs would look like if Bill Main, GI3, JJ and others just did things the way they were and never experimented. Just a thought for those willing to think it.

I guess like all progress, you get periods of "revolutionary change" and the periods of "evolutionary change". I think until the next big thing, chopping and changing with kit configuration is mostly relatively minor - how much "better" can those minor changes make a rig?

FWIW, I am waiting with baited breath for someone to develop a mass produced CCR, with CO2 monitoring, to retail around the $4k mark. Then we'll be back into a period of revolutionary change! I'd certainly buy one!

 

[DaleC]

Or, where would they be if they decided these caves are too dangerous and just hung up their fins?

Experimentation is good and has its place, nobody is debating that. We're just clearing up the recognition of some level of risk involved, though it may be minimal for our kind of diving, and the personal decision underlying whether one can gain sufficient benefit from experimenting given the type of diving that they do. For most of us not doing expedition dives, I think the latter point really comes down to what you're personally looking for.

I wouldn't argue that. In the solo section some of us have come to the conclusion that we don't tell anyone else how to dive. It is a personal decision that we are not responsable for. We just describe how we dive. The same applies here.

I guess it comes down to a personal decision about what risks one wants to adopt. I don't understand how the same people who won't even contemplate simple OW dives without a manifold will turn around and do deep penetration cave dives or incur hours of deco for no better reason than to just do it... but I guess they don't percieve that as risky. They'll say they train and plan to reduce those risks but when I say I do the same for ID's it doesn't fly. Beats me.