Inadvertent but valuable weighting lesson

[boulderjohn]

So, you assumed. I didn't invent the phrase but I do stick by it. I don't care how many people want to try to bash me for it.

I cannot be sure who invented the phrase, but I find a certain irony here. I assume Pete got the phrase from the same person from whom I first heard it, the person with whom I was diving in Puget Sound when I wore way too much undergarment. Pete used the phrase and got attacked for it. When the person I assume he got it from used it, it became one of the sainted phrases for which she is so well remembered.

Evidently it's the person and not the phrase that makes the difference.

 

[The Chairman]

Evidently it's the person and not the phrase that makes the difference.

I resemble that remark!

 

[Beau640]

Yes, I do that.

And that's why I was saying I dive different than you. I do what @CharlieRogers does. Keep the bubble minimum.

 

[Storker]

IMO we're seeing one of the problems with discussions, particularly online. Nuances are often lost, and it's too easy to dig down in our respective trenches and stay there. That's neither productive nor particularly instructive.

I prefer to keep my suit bubble small, particularly if I'm wearing a shell suit. They can be pretty unforgiving WRT air migration. OTOH, I don't take that to its extreme, which I might do if my diving required head-down descents or head-up ascents. I know divers who like to run their suit really tight, and on average they have more issues with staying warm than I have.

Yes, I agree that weight=warmth. But within limits. Add more insulation to stay warm, and you'll probably need more weight. Use the absolute minimum of weight and run your suit really tight, and your undersuit is less lofted than it could be. If someone who likes to run their suit really tight adds a kilo or two to their belt, they'll have enough weight to compensate for some extra suit air that can provide proper lofting of their underwear. OTOH, I, too, believe that having more air in the suit than what's needed to properly loft the undersuit - with a little margin - isn't a good thing. In a really snug drysuit like the Fusion or the Scubapro Everdry 4, you can probably get away with a little more air than you need. In a shell suit, which by nature has to be more loose-fitting, that'll probably bite you. And just to add some anecdotal "data", I've tried both alternatives, and what I describe fits very well with what I've experienced.

 

[stuartv]

No.

I know you are the boss. But... I dive in temps down to 39 Fahrenheit.

If you are cold get a better undersuit. If still cold use a compressed neoprene suit. If you are still cold get a heated undersuit. If you are still cold skip the dive and enjoy other hobbies.

Too much gas in a drysuit is horrible. I dive mine with the valve all the way open and tight. Forget about feet first ascents - you have other problems. Not least having massive problems in wrecks with depth changes.

I think you are attributing the wrong meaning to what Pete said.

Lead = warmth means (to me, anyway), that if you want to be warmer, you need to add some undergarments and enough air to let them have some loft. If you do that, you will have to add lead. If you are not willing to add lead, you will not be able to get warmer. And if you add any undergarment without adding lead, you will probably be underweighted (assuming your weight was correct to begin with).

I think, y'all are saying the same thing. Pete is just using the catchy phrase for it.

As an aside, my local quarry is 37F- 39F on the bottom, all year round. I dive it in a shell suit with good undies and, with double steel 120s and a stainless steel BP, I only add a 4 # V-weight. I don't get how some people need 30+ pounds of weight.

Too much gas in a drysuit is bad. But, if you're just talking about enough to let undergarments achieve their full loft, then if you can't mange your buoyancy easily, you probably shouldn't be inside a wreck in the first place.

 

[Trailboss123]

I think you are attributing the wrong meaning to what Pete said.

Lead = warmth means (to me, anyway), that if you want to be warmer, you need to add some undergarments and enough air to let them have some loft. If you do that, you will have to add lead. If you are not willing to add lead, you will not be able to get warmer. And if you add any undergarment without adding lead, you will probably be underweighted (assuming your weight was correct to begin with).

I think, y'all are saying the same thing. Pete is just using the catchy phrase for it.

As an aside, my local quarry is 37F- 39F on the bottom, all year round. I dive it in a shell suit with good undies and, with double steel 120s and a stainless steel BP, I only add a 4 # V-weight. I don't get how some people need 30+ pounds of weight.

Too much gas in a drysuit is bad. But, if you're just talking about enough to let undergarments achieve their full loft, then if you can't mange your buoyancy easily, you probably shouldn't be inside a wreck in the first place.

Thank you Stuart! You nailed the first 1/2 of your post spot on! As fort he 2nd half: If I were wearing double steel 120's and a steel BP and wing, I probably wouldn't need any weight. However, if I am in my drysuit and diving a single 85cf Steel with a buoyant jacket style BC, I am going to need 27-30lbs. All about the configuration.

 

[stuartv]

Thank you Stuart! You nailed the first 1/2 of your post spot on! As fort he 2nd half: If I were wearing double steel 120's and a steel BP and wing, I probably wouldn't need any weight. However, if I am in my drysuit and diving a single 85cf Steel with a buoyant jacket style BC, I am going to need 27-30lbs. All about the configuration.

Yeah, I don't need any weight with my BP and doubles, if I have little or no undies on. When I add the Fourth Element Arctic undies, then I add the 4# V-weight. If I dive the same config in salt water, I have to add even more.

 

[Storker]

If I dive the same config in salt water, I have to add even more.

"If you dive the same config in salt water"? I can comfortably count the number of fresh water dives on one hand. With a decent margin.

I have to say that you and I obviously live - and dive - in rather different worlds. Which is worth noting, because conditions differ, diving styles differ, requirements differ, so there just isn't a "one size fits all" solution to a question.

 

[The Chairman]

I think you are attributing the wrong meaning to what Pete said.

Thank you for your lucid insight!

 

[stuartv]

"If you dive the same config in salt water"? I can comfortably count the number of fresh water dives on one hand. With a decent margin.

I have to say that you and I obviously live - and dive - in rather different worlds. Which is worth noting, because conditions differ, diving styles differ, requirements differ, so there just isn't a "one size fits all" solution to a question.

Indeed!

BTW, there are some great wrecks in the Saint Lawrence River. Cold fresh water. Old wooden ships that are still intact enough to penetrate! My local quarry is also cold fresh water. In fact, the only cold salt water I've dived is NJ wrecks. NC wrecks, FL, the Caribbean, and Hawaii are all nice and warm salt water.

Because people's diving worlds ARE so different, I think it's very appropriate to specify fresh or salt water when they are talking about their weighting requirements. It's too easy for the author to assume one and the reader to assume the other.