In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Zieg]

I can't really wrap my head around that one either. I could care less how everyone else wants to dive, but there are tons of people that tell me my vintage gear is dangerous, that not diving with an octo will kill me, that the aluminum 80 is the worst thing since the Edsel and that diving without a BC is tantamount to suicide.Let's not even get into the fin debate. It's odd how I have done more dangerous sports with less admonition, it makes me wonder where that mentality of "you have to do it this way" comes from in diving. I dove Disney the other week, and there you have to use their gear, the only thing you can bring is a mask. I dove some kind of Scubapro jacket BC, split fins, and a regulator with only one second stage. Who cares, it wasn't my gear but it all worked. My trim and whatnot was fine. The splits were a little goofy for heli turns and frog kicks, but I managed. I watched the DVD later to see if I looked terrible, and lo and behold I looked exactly the same way that I always do, horizontal and in the free fall position. Apparently most of that stuff just doesn't really matter when it comes down to it. I had a blast diving that aquarium, and my money went to conservation efforts.

Maybe more people should worry about having a good time and less about what the guy/girl next to them is doing. I think that should feed into opening more avenues up for diving. Maybe minimalism, vintage, or competitive diving isn't for everyone. If it keeps the sport alive and keeps it growing though, that is awesome. To borrow some of what Dale said, if not for sport climbing, I would have never started rock climbing. It is heresy to traditional climbers, but it got me into a sport that I was initially too terrified to attempt. That's important.

I believe that the line from Ana is obviously sarcasm. I've met the woman, and I can safely say it's sarcasm.

Maybe more people should worry about having a good time and less about what the guy/girl next to them is doing.

THAT'S THE ANSWER.

 

[danvolker]

I can't really wrap my head around that one either. I could care less how everyone else wants to dive, but there are tons of people that tell me my vintage gear is dangerous, that not diving with an octo will kill me, that the aluminum 80 is the worst thing since the Edsel and that diving without a BC is tantamount to suicide.Let's not even get into the fin debate. It's odd how I have done more dangerous sports with less admonition, it makes me wonder where that mentality of "you have to do it this way" comes from in diving. I dove Disney the other week, and there you have to use their gear, the only thing you can bring is a mask. I dove some kind of Scubapro jacket BC, split fins, and a regulator with only one second stage. Who cares, it wasn't my gear but it all worked. My trim and whatnot was fine. The splits were a little goofy for heli turns and frog kicks, but I managed. I watched the DVD later to see if I looked terrible, and lo and behold I looked exactly the same way that I always do, horizontal and in the free fall position. Apparently most of that stuff just doesn't really matter when it comes down to it. I had a blast diving that aquarium, and my money went to conservation efforts.

Maybe more people should worry about having a good time and less about what the guy/girl next to them is doing. I think that should feed into opening more avenues up for diving. Maybe minimalism, vintage, or competitive diving isn't for everyone. If it keeps the sport alive and keeps it growing though, that is awesome. To borrow some of what Dale said, if not for sport climbing, I would have never started rock climbing. It is heresy to traditional climbers, but it got me into a sport that I was initially too terrified to attempt. That's important.

Slonda,
The "wrong gear" responses would usually be more significant as they relate to one diver's ability to assist a buddy if in need...though if you were on a dive boat, and got buddied to someone whose tank looked like it was moments away from falling out of the BC, and the guy's hoses were dragging on the deck as he walked--you might decide that his gear configuration or gear choices made him detrimental to your enjoyment of the upcoming dive with him.
As I was diving in the 70's, I am well aware that a diver who is trained and good with a single 2nd stage reg ( no octopus) is easily capable of sharing air to an out of air buddy--however, the issue for the masses, is that the "masses" are not capable of this.
Most people who are going to be buddied up on a charter boat, will be smart to take a look at new potential buddies, and to decide if this person appears to be geared up in a manner suggesting they are a good buddy candidate. This would also mean, that if the gear is totally foreign to them on a potential buddy, then helping this buddy with any gear problem they could have would be problematic--and maybe vice versa.

As to the competition issue....if you are really serious for pushing diving competition, then why not start pushing Freediving...Freediving is more of a "sport" than scuba, and it works great to make people better scuba divers. It is less gear intensive, so better at getting people to begin a sport with less major financial commitment. Compeition can be no more than just improving your own ability to do drops on deeper reefs--going from the 20 foot stuff almost anyone can manage, to 35 foot reefs, then 60 foot reefs, and for some people, much more intensive training to be able to enjoy drops to 90 foot reefs or beyond.
While I don't personally like Apnea contests ( I have been a freediver since the early 90's) , apnea competitions are easy to run, and may appeal to some of the market you are sketching out.
While freedive spearfishing competitions may be to ecologically harsh for today's scuba mentalities, you could have freedive wide angle, or, freedive macro photography competitions....
You could have freedivers competing in the swim around Key West that masters swimmers seem to win at every year ( 12 mile swim I think)--any gear is legal, but all the scuba divers who have ever tried it lacked the right fins or fitness to beat the swimmers in such a long duration event.
Freedivers don't require as expensive or as large a boat, to go out and freedive ( this means less investment by the "Freedive Operator").

Freediving can be practiced in many places, and can also be great for vacations--a freediving group can charter a boat in the South florida, in the Bahamas, in Fiji, or pretty much any place with 30 to 60 foot reefs or wrecks.

Long term, people who get in to freedivng, may one day want to become scuba divers as well...and they will be much better scuba divers for all their time freediving. If you want to open up another few percent of the US population to the ocean, freediving could be your ticket.

Regards,
Dan V

 

[shoredivr]

If we're solving problems for Slonda828...NJ, NC, and Florida solve your needs. You might get more help if you didn't refer to everyone with experience as old people. People older than yourself are doing the things you want to do every day. They just may not be in Georgia with regards to diving and climbing.


DaleC, I think individual competition in diving does occur among tech divers in particular. Individual competition (competitive with self) is largely what drives climbing as well I believe (for me anyway).

I think there could be more talk of challenging dives. If you try posting anything like that now you mainly get cautioned not to do them by people who haven't done them. A little more tolerance in this area would be beneficial I'm sure.

I also think the concept of promoting what local diving you do have is the way to go. If all you have is a lake or quarry, sink something and at least you have something to look at and a reason to gain experience diving even if it's just a time filler until you can travel elsewhere.

.

These are good points

 

[Slonda828]

Slonda,
The "wrong gear" responses would usually be more significant as they relate to one diver's ability to assist a buddy if in need...though if you were on a dive boat, and got buddied to someone whose tank looked like it was moments away from falling out of the BC, and the guy's hoses were dragging on the deck as he walked--you might decide that his gear configuration or gear choices made him detrimental to your enjoyment of the upcoming dive with him.
As I was diving in the 70's, I am well aware that a diver who is trained and good with a single 2nd stage reg ( no octopus) is easily capable of sharing air to an out of air buddy--however, the issue for the masses, is that the "masses" are not capable of this.
Most people who are going to be buddied up on a charter boat, will be smart to take a look at new potential buddies, and to decide if this person appears to be geared up in a manner suggesting they are a good buddy candidate. This would also mean, that if the gear is totally foreign to them on a potential buddy, then helping this buddy with any gear problem they could have would be problematic--and maybe vice versa.

As to the competition issue....if you are really serious for pushing diving competition, then why not start pushing Freediving...Freediving is more of a "sport" than scuba, and it works great to make people better scuba divers. It is less gear intensive, so better at getting people to begin a sport with less major financial commitment. Compeition can be no more than just improving your own ability to do drops on deeper reefs--going from the 20 foot stuff almost anyone can manage, to 35 foot reefs, then 60 foot reefs, and for some people, much more intensive training to be able to enjoy drops to 90 foot reefs or beyond.
While I don't personally like Apnea contests ( I have been a freediver since the early 90's) , apnea competitions are easy to run, and may appeal to some of the market you are sketching out.
While freedive spearfishing competitions may be to ecologically harsh for today's scuba mentalities, you could have freedive wide angle, or, freedive macro photography competitions....
You could have freedivers competing in the swim around Key West that masters swimmers seem to win at every year ( 12 mile swim I think)--any gear is legal, but all the scuba divers who have ever tried it lacked the right fins or fitness to beat the swimmers in such a long duration event.
Freedivers don't require as expensive or as large a boat, to go out and freedive ( this means less investment by the "Freedive Operator").

Freediving can be practiced in many places, and can also be great for vacations--a freediving group can charter a boat in the South florida, in the Bahamas, in Fiji, or pretty much any place with 30 to 60 foot reefs or wrecks.

Long term, people who get in to freedivng, may one day want to become scuba divers as well...and they will be much better scuba divers for all their time freediving. If you want to open up another few percent of the US population to the ocean, freediving could be your ticket.

Regards,
Dan V

Dan, thanks for your intelligent and well thought out comments. I have no desire to start doing anything as far as a business for diving. I love what I do for a living and it provides me with everything that I need, so my time is more valuable to me than anything. I just threw my keys in the hat (so to speak) because there sometimes seems to be this kind of "everyone pity me, I run a dive shop" mentality on the board and out in town. I think expanding freediving is a great idea, I am actually setting aside time to take a course (hopefully from Martin Stepanek) to become an intermediate freediver. I'd really like to see if I can hit 150 feet on a breath hold and I love the athletic, discipline, and fitness aspects of it.

I probably sold you short on my dive gear comments. When I show up at a charter, I bring my own dive buddy. The only time that I dove with an insta-buddy was is my AOW class, and that was the last time. So we dive the same setup. If one dives minimal or vintage, then we both do. If we have to dive standard kit because the boat will not let us on, then we both do. If we need doubles or long hoses, then we both bring them, and so on. While I am sure one could raise the argument that I could not provide air to a novice diver with no skills at buddy breathing with only one second stage, I posit that they should have their own dive buddy to donate air to them or they should be supervised by a divemaster (they shouldn't be in an OOA emergency anyway).

You are right though, maybe a larger freediving market will help the dive industry. It is pretty hard to get good freediving fins in America. Very few places carry Sporasub, Picasso, or Cressi freediving stuff. Some of the really good freediving masks have to be purchased on Ebay or off of foreign websites as well.

 

[Slonda828]

I believe that the line from Ana is obviously sarcasm. I've met the woman, and I can safely say it's sarcasm.

I am well aware of how sarcasm works. Her sarcasm was saying that (opposite to what she wrote) that she does not feel that diving solo or any of those other things were wrong. I was, in point of fact, agreeing with her. That means that I got her sarcasm. Thanks for the heads up though

As for you "THAT'S THE ANSWER" line, I think that many of us note that ourselves as well. I believe the question is, how do you implement it? How do you encourage charters and shops to be more receptive to the minimalist, vintage, or freediver? How do you make the situation "win-win"? I feel like if more shops and charters were receptive to these types of people, or carried any of the gear, then more of those divers would go to shops and charters. If I had ten charter boats to dive without a BC, then I would use them. That's just one example, the same thing could be said for freedivers and vintage guys. I am not framing this in the context of myself, but in the context of diving at large. I bet there are tons of other niche markets of divers out there that I am completely unaware of. Why not bring them in to the fold as well? This would help alleviate the "we have to crank out more lower standards divers ASAP!" thing that has been going on. That would probably have noticeable effects to the observant diver later on. Eventually positive changes from echelons on high filter down to the lower levels. The military uses the term "command climate", maybe we could make the climate of diving even more positive.

 

[Zieg]

I am well aware of how sarcasm works. Her sarcasm was saying that (opposite to what she wrote) that she does not feel that diving solo or any of those other things were wrong. I was, in point of fact, agreeing with her. That means that I got her sarcasm. Thanks for the heads up though

Good, I was a little worried there for a moment. I was having trouble thinking you didn't understand.

As for you "THAT'S THE ANSWER" line, I think that many of us note that ourselves as well. I believe the question is, how do you implement it? How do you encourage charters and shops to be more receptive to the minimalist, vintage, or freediver? How do you make the situation "win-win"? I feel like if more shops and charters were receptive to these types of people, or carried any of the gear, then more of those divers would go to shops and charters. If I had ten charter boats to dive without a BC, then I would use them. That's just one example, the same thing could be said for freedivers and vintage guys. I am not framing this in the context of myself, but in the context of diving at large. I bet there are tons of other niche markets of divers out there that I am completely unaware of. Why not bring them in to the fold as well? This would help alleviate the "we have to crank out more lower standards divers ASAP!" thing that has been going on. That would probably have noticeable effects to the observant diver later on. Eventually positive changes from echelons on high filter down to the lower levels. The military uses the term "command climate", maybe we could make the climate of diving even more positive.

I don't have this answer. I wish I did. My experience has been that the dive op has to get to know you first, then they might let you be. But that takes way too much time and work. Perhaps allowing releases that really mean what they say, that you ARE responsible for yourself, allowing the dive op to breath alittle without worrying about being sued for everything.

My solution has been to use my own boat and dive with people I know who have the same mind set as my own.

 

[Slonda828]

My solution has been to use my own boat and dive with people I know who have the same mind set as my own.

I've been doing that as well (though not on my own boat, on other boats). I have no issue with that really, but someday if that makes manufacturers (big picture) curtail selling gear or jack up unit price even more, then I am sort of assisting in shooting myself in the foot. I don't mind floating the main stream of diving once in a while, it's just funny that they (they being shops or charters) usually won't let me (or you). Doesn't that seem like it is part of the problem?

 

[Leadking]

Years ago I asked the following question "Why do divers dive?". I got answers like:

to experience the underwater world, to have adventure, and the like. Then I put forth the following;

Divers dive for the same reason people go bowling, play golf, or go square dancing. It's not about the diving! It's about having fun with people you like. I used to go diving with my friends almost every weekend Isle Royale. It meant that I did not sleep Fridays (I worked the night shift) so that I could get the club organized for the trip up Friday night. It was a 300 mile trip up North to the boat and then between a 2-6 hour boat trip out to the island. Two dives on Saturday and maybe a night dive. Up early Sunday for a morning dive and then the boat trip and car ride home where I stopped at work to put in my 8 hour shift Sunday night. Why would anyone do this? Most dives were 20 minutes or less (150') and weather dependent. Sometimes we never got a dive in. So was it for the diving or the comradery?

I have always encouraged dive stores to have an active social calendar and understand they are in the entertainment business. Customers are not going to give you money without something in return. The Internet does not offer what a good shop is selling.

 

[Slonda828]

The Internet does not offer what a good shop is selling.

That comment is really it I think, as far as how I feel as a diver. I couldn't really verbalize it right until I read what you wrote. If I had a shop that had a good group of people associated with it and stuff going on, then I would probably frequent that shop. I have driven like 6 hours just to get on a boat with a bunch of my friends.

 

[Malicart]

The Internet does not offer what a good shop is selling.

Outside point of view here but....

The internet is not what you should be fighting here. Use tools to make yourselves better. The internet is only a tool.