In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Sas]

You do not even have to ask that one man. Ever crusty diver in the world that has 5,000 dives asks me if I'm old enough to be there or if I just go certified. It's like a badge of honor to be crotchety in diving for some reason. I think it is because it is an activity where you can be older )) and maybe not in the best physical condition and still be "good" at it. Most other things if you are in poor physical condition you are immediately bad at them and if you are old )) your body cannot endure the stress. Diving is one of those few things that you can hold on to as an elder elitist. I think it is also interesting that in things where you would expect people to look down their noses at you (climbing, rafting, hiking, etc.) very few people actually do. Even on here before I got my DM rating people used to immediately devalue things that I said because I was 29 and I was not an instructor, a DM, or a guy with over 1,000 dives. I think the really funny part is that unless you are all thumbs, diving normal dive profiles is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. We all make such a big deal out of it (myself included), and for the most part it is really quite simple. JMO.

Ok well I've read through all of this thread now and my experiences in diving are very far removed from yours - other than being sold a bunch of overpriced crap from the LDS I certified with (there are bad apples in every industry ). I think be careful of making generalisations from your own experience (in your own words you don't have a lot of experience) as it really doesn't hold beyond you and your own scene.

I am never looked down upon for my age, non-professional diving status and my lack of experience in diving by older, more experienced divers (and quite honestly, experience is linked to better skill and knowledge most of the time so 5000-dive divers are within their rights to consider me a n00b if they want), the local charters run tech dives frequently for small numbers (though you have to do dawn trips ), no one really complains too much about others' gear choices (other than friendly banter) that I've seen, no one cares if I solo dive (boats tend to have a 'don't ask and I won't care' type policy), most people who dive locally don't need babysitting (and the ones that do don't dive often enough to be troublesome), I have a few LDSs I can trust for advice and to price match things I find overseas and so on. Things seem to be going ok as far as diving goes in my area and quite honestly I don't really care (as a consumer) about the need to retain more divers. The traffic is bad enough in summer at the local dive sites

If most LDSs close, I really won't be bothered. I just don't feel they are really needed. Most things I buy I get online with the exception of groceries and shoes (shoes are hard to size online in my experience!!). If I didn't live within five minutes walk of a supermarket I'd get my groceries online too like many of my friends (inner city, not many of my friends have cars, me and my partner are an exception with two cars). Diving is another exception to my 'buying everything online' style of shopping but that is changing more and more towards online stuff now that I know what I want in gear. I mean, I have LDSs that I like and would be sad to see them close as I like and respect the owners/workers there but it won't stop my current diving. I'm in an independent club where I get training and plenty of equipment advice and loans, I can order stuff off the internet if I need gear, there are people who do equip servicing out of their garages on the side who are well respected that I could take my gear too or I could learn it myself (more realistically, my buddy could fix it, his nickname is Macgyver ), I know people who have boats who can take me out boat diving, quite able to organise my own travel... about the only thing I would struggle with is getting fills as I don't know anyone outside of a shop with a compressor. But if it came to it I'd get my own with a bunch of friends or join another independent club that has one.

I just don't think LDSs are needed (or probably some places can only support one or two shops that can provide everything, not just a poor level of stock, basic training, repetitive dive trips and air fills) and the market generally gets rid of what is not needed. I know this sucks for people who run shops/charters who are losing business. I've had friends who've had businesses have failed (and my partner runs his own business, so far so good, but I do know first hand that being a small business owner is precarious) and I know it is not something to take lightly but that is just the way the world works A lot of people are talking about how to get more divers in and so on but there are too many competing leisure activities these days, diving is expensive (I know there are much more expensive hobbies but it is expensive for most people), it is time consuming (in my country at least, the average hours per week worked is increasing) and most people see it as a thing to try maybe once or twice in their life (like sky diving). Just don't see it happening on a large scale.

People have mentioned making it competitive - there are plenty of areas where diving is competitive even at a basic level (i.e PADI collect them all specialties - a lot of badge collectors seem to do this to show them off new divers going on about how they have a low SAC, how they have AOW and therefore now can mock OW divers, etc) and at a technical level (wanting to be the deepest, the longest underwater, in the weirdest place, etc etc). There's been competitions such as 'scuba olympics' and so on but they haven't really seem to have caught ahold. Nearly everyone I know who has been diving at least a few years does it for relaxation, not for competition. The people who are competitive I've seen are often new divers who want to go straight into tech, caves, or whatever as quick as humanly possible. Many of them scare themselves off/burn out by moving too fast or give up when they realise how much money and time it requires... So not really a sustainable base to make competitions out of But anyway, that's just what I've seen. I might be off base as I have only been around diving for a year and a half but as a new diver this is how the industry comes across to me.

 

[Slonda828]

Ok well I've read through all of this thread now and my experiences in diving are very far removed from yours - other than being sold a bunch of overpriced crap from the LDS I certified with (there are bad apples in every industry ). I think be careful of making generalisations from your own experience (in your own words you don't have a lot of experience) as it really doesn't hold beyond you and your own scene.

I was referring to my scene though, as you are referring to yours. So I think in that regard we are doing the same thing. It sounds like AU has a great diving scene. I think if we talked about a vast majority of the scenes out there, we could probably start to form a macro level opinion (even if it was a small one) on what diving is like as a whole from the actual diver's perspective. Also, my reference to my experiences was framed in contrast to the "thousands of dives" diver. I personally feel pretty competent diving within my abilities and skills in Georgia, Florida, and the Caribbean. I feel perfectly safe and capable at guiding dives in Georgia and Florida as well. I am sure that you feel pretty competent diving in your environment. I just feel like you do not need thousands of dives to dive within the recreational limits of no decompression diving. If I was talking about wreck penetration, deco, or cave diving, then yeah, maybe I need thousands of dives. But, as modest as you are, you have to admit that you feel pretty comfortable and skilled diving your favorite sites nowadays. I do too. My buoyancy has been great for about 75 dives now, my weighting is dialed in for all my exposure protection, and life is good. Based upon our earlier conversations, I gather that you feel the same. I am a dedicated open water diver, so within the limits of what I already do there are not many more skills to learn, though I have to practice to not get rusty. I'm not quite sure if 800 more dives in Georgia or Florida would make me noticeably better at being a recreational diver though.

BTW, buying shoes online is a horrible idea for me as well. Apparently a men's US 13 has a standard deviation of like 1 size plus or minus, I'm not sure if women's shoes follow that rule or not.

As for the LDS going the way of the dodo, I agree. I think that it is only a matter of time before we see a lot less shops.

 

[gcbryan]

Recreational scuba diving isn't rocket science and you probably won't have markedly better skills with 800 more dives.

You will have more experience in the time it takes to get those 800 additional dives and that may or may not make a difference.

I have to say around here I don't see newer divers (especially those who are serious) looked down upon. Age is irrelevant around here as far as I can tell as long as people (young or old) show respect for the other.

I dive and climb with people much younger and a few a little older. Age doesn't seem to be a factor other than in climbing my body gets beat up faster perhaps than someone younger but everyone I know who climbs enough is injured half of the time anyway!

I always respected those older than me even when I was much younger but when I was really young I did think that "old" people were boring and uninteresting after a certain age. I latter realized that those people would have been boring at 20.

Someone who is interesting at 20 will be interesting at any age and conversely someone who isn't interesting at 20 isn't likely to suddenly become a great sage in their latter years!

DaleC you might be on to something...competitive scuba competitions in the local community pool for the teenage divers! That's the age group that is organized into competitive indoor climbing competitions at my local climbing gym.

For the elderly, perhaps SAC rate competitions where you park the wheel chair in the shallow end of the pool for a timed event.

 

[RJP]

I know better, I've been in work groups conducted by marketing research firms working for equipment manufactures.

That's part of the problem Dave. People are doing research with people like YOU. You are what we call an "outlier" in market research terms. You are at least two, if not three, standard deviations out from "the typical diver" and while your input is great for any manufacturer who wants to determine how to sell a second rebreather to folks who are already TMx certified and regularly dive the Doria and the U-869...it ain't worth as much when it comes to figuring out how to motivate the average Joe to get into diving.

The research he's talking about has ready been done.

Not the type of research I'm talking about...

The real question is, why was it not put to good use?

That's the big question, and the answer is obvious.

:d

 

[RJP]

I just don't think LDSs are needed...

That ol' chestnut gets brought up a lot...by people who are already certified and own their own gear.

Where are NEW divers gonna get certified? LeisurePro? Scubatoys.com?

YOU might not need your LDS, but the industry sure as hell does!

 

[redacted]

That ol' chestnut gets brought up a lot...by people who are already certified and own their own gear.

Where are NEW divers gonna get certified? LeisurePro? Scubatoys.com?

YOU might not need your LDS, but the industry sure as hell does!

Before there were LDSs, there were divers. No doubt, LDSs bring many things together and can make diving very convenient. And the manufacturers have to love them as they allow them to avoid the whole unpleasant customer interaction thing. Efficient, competitive LDSs are an asset for many divers. Inefficient, unreliable, uncompetitive LDSs are more of a detractor than an asset.

 

[Sas]

That ol' chestnut gets brought up a lot...by people who are already certified and own their own gear.

Where are NEW divers gonna get certified? LeisurePro? Scubatoys.com?

YOU might not need your LDS, but the industry sure as hell does!

Ahh this old chestnut gets brought up a lot too... The club I am in now is not through an LDS and they provide training from OW onwards. There are also independent instructors as well. And there are other programs such as those run through schools and universities. I am sure there are other examples but that should cover it.

 

[offthewall1]

Before there were LDSs, there were divers. No doubt, LDSs bring many things together and can make diving very convenient. And the manufacturers have to love them as they allow them to avoid the whole unpleasant customer interaction thing. Efficient, competitive LDSs are an asset for many divers. Inefficient, unreliable, uncompetitive LDSs are more of a detractor than an asset.

Back to the reason LDS's can't compete... and why it is the manufacturers fault. Let's clear this up for the masses. It has been done many times before in many threads... but seems highly relevant here.

The largest manufacturers have used price fixing to control the industry... to the detriment of the consumer, but historically to the benefit of the LDS. The advent of internet selling and back door deals to the internet sellers is why LDS's cannot compete.

Here is a local example of why my competitors cannot compete with me or with the internet. They're furious with me - when the fury is misdirected. It should be directed at their manufacturers. The other option is of course to change manufacturers. This would be the best way for them to become competitive.

We are Local shop A - We sell brands of goods that do not use MARP (Minimum Allowed Retail Pricing - a price set at which the dealer under no circumstance is allowed to sell below without risk of losing their dealership agreement with that brand.)

Our local competitors B and C sell brands that enforce MARP upon them - all the while those same manufacturers are selling directly to the online sellers and allowing the online sellers to discount their products. The worst part is they lie to the LDS's and tell them they do not sell direct to the internet sellers.

Shop B & C are forced to sell a Regulator (under marp pricing) for $500.00 I am able to sell a comparable different brand (that doesn't enforce marp) for $300.00 (in the same neighborhood as the internet sellers.)

When customers shop the various dive stores in the area or shop online - they're greeted with two choices. Buy the brand shops B&C sell via the internet and save $200... or buy the brand we sell and save $200... but still get the local service, customer service etc... they really want to have. In our model, they get the convenience of an LDS to meet their needs and they still save the $200.

The bottom line for the LDS's who are suffering is that they continue to stick with brands enforcing price fixing - when that heyday is over. That model can not survive in an internet age. There are no longer protected territories.

Now I have been preaching this to the choir for the past three years. Unfortunatly my competitors have not prayed with me. I don't want to see them fail. I want to see them flourish. More dive shops making people happy - will make more divers - and more divers means a healthy sport and a customer base in our general area.

These other shops have stuck by the archaic policies of their manufacturers while anyone who attempted to enforce those policies on us was ejected - thrown out, expligated...; etc... We now deal only in brands that work with us or within our pricing structure, or who've we've reached an amicable agreement with on how we will conduct business.

The other shops local to me will continue to suffer losses if they continue to do business with mismanaged manufacturers. Some of the biggest manufacturers have seem sales declines this year of 30-40%. While they sit around and believe it is the economy (and certainly there is some minimal economic impact,) the reality is this is the trend. It has been trending to losses for them because for too long they had ignored consumer spending's exodus to the internet (and it's impact on the LDS.) Then their knee jerk response has been to dump their product onto the internet and damn be the industry.

Here is how LDS's can fight back. Dump the companies holding you to MARP like hot potatoes. Their products are no better than the others, no matter the perception. Make gear affordable for your customer bases. If the big boys change their policies - then be open to allowing them back in, but make them pay for floor space in your store.

There is more to come...

 

[Wookie]

Are young adults respected in the diving world or are they looked down upon as kids fresh behind the ears? Do adults listen to their opinions or are they marginalized?

You do not even have to ask that one man. Ever crusty diver in the world that has 5,000 dives asks me if I'm old enough to be there or if I just go certified.

A major part of the reason us crotchety old guys look at the young guys is not age, it is maturity. I don't know either one of you guys, but by your avatar, Dale is my age, and Slonda is my age back when I was alot younger. Guys my age that have been diving for a while have seen someone die while diving, or know of someone who dies while diving, or have read about those "here, hold my beer and watch this!" moments while someone dies diving. The young guys are bulletproof, it can't happen to them, and they can dive to 300 feet on air and come back every time. You know what? You can dive to 300 feet on air, and you can come back most of the time, too.

Some of us have been scared to death by the crap we've pulled, and we're pretty happy to be alive. When we discover that there is a method to do the things we want to do safely, or with a higher level of safety, We're pretty happy. A lot of the young guys are starting familiess, or have other pressing needs for their bucks, and so may not be able to afford those safety items I'm talking about. Like helium, or training, or a rebreather, or whatever it is. Quite frankly, I've come full circle. I like looking at the pretty fishes in 30 feet of water on a coral reef. The video camera stays on the boat, the still camera does too. I dive enough in 300 feet of water to keep my skills up, but when you add $700 worth of helium to a $2000 trip, some of the younger guys are tempted to go find a 300 foot deep mine and dive it on air.

When we hear talk of competitive diving from a youngster, we wince a little bit and say "here we go again" Competition to me is to be the first diver (ever) on a wreck, or the first diver to see a goliath grouper on a divesite, or to help a diver understand buoyancy (instructors know, when the light comes on). It's not sexy, it's not like summiting, but it's still really really cool. For me, anyway.

Frank

 

[danvolker]

Wow, that sounds like a great time!

To me, this rip off of "Survivor on diving" comletely misses the point of diving.
It takes away from diving by adding nonsense to it---it's like someone who is trying to make Snow skiing more fun, by playing catch with a football as you fly down a double diamond run. This ruins the zen and the sport of both skiing AND footbal.

I think Sea Hunt and Cousteu put alot of us in the water back in the late 60's and throughout the 70's...James Bond films did not hurt either, to continue carrying the "adventure" aspect of diving, and to keep the idea of diving in front of a large audience. But the real issue here is that diving begain as "an Adventure Sport", for adventurers...it was NOT a sport for everyone on your block, or in your neighborhood. With the advent of DEMA, and the massive ad machinery used by the the collective, by 2000 we had dive shops on almost every corner,in parts of south Florida ( ok, slight exageration).
Many people got into diving, that should never have been divers--it was not their sport--they did not really enjoy it, they were terrible at it, and there was no one around to really help them to enjoy it...But, there were plenty around to help them spend more money on more diving or gear.

Now with a looming global depression, the middle class is shrinking, and the spending habits and leisure activities are changing. The dive store on every corner we once had, is about to become a moment of history--it is over for them now.

Who will do well? Those who were lucky or smart enough to have built their dive shops in areas with a very high concentration of real divers ( sorry, Retail site Potential Studies won't help much with this).

After the massive shrinking of dive market, there will still be "Adventure Divers", and there will still be some dive shops left. My guess, is that Charter Boat businesses that maintain a good Rental Gear inventory, could do well selling 6 month to 1 year old rental gear to their divers---their divers get to decide if they lke certain gear, and the shop makes out on the rental--covering the price of their inventory, and then gets to sell it long before it is old, at prices that will destroy brand new Internet gear sales. Wetsuits begin this "evolution", then regulator and computer rentals, then fins , and then anything their divers express an interest in....Demo first by rental, then buy later.
There are too many charter boats right now, but charter boats are the key--they can't be replaced by Internet sales, and they are the real heart of the dive industry..they have instructors of their own, they can run trips outside their local areas--they can offer the adventure diver of old, pretty much everything the want or need in diving....with no bad blood about high costs or having crappy gear pushed on people.

If you want an example of an ideal dive operation, look at Jim Abernethy's Scuba Adventures...While I don't think Jim does the "rental to later sell" idea I mentioned, he certainly could do this if he wanted. And, if he did, there would be ZERO reason for a DIVER to ever visit another dive operation--unless they wanted to dive at some destination Jim does not go to.

Some keys to Jim's success:
* He is as excited about diving today as he was 25 years ago--and you feel it...this in contrast to many dive operators where it is "hurry up, get on the boat---then, hurry up, get off the boat..".. in other words, many have lost the spark, at it is just a business they no longer enjoy.
* Jim does not usually run his own boats, but instead plays "Johnny Carson on the water", and entertains his divers...and takes them on awesome dives, SHARING his enjoyment and skill at finding adventure on every dive...THIS IS WHAT DIVERS WILL PAY FOR!!!

Bottom Line...A shop without a boat does not offer enough. The Internet is going to kill it. The Internet can not kill the boat.
Also, there are too many NEVER-EVERS in diving, thanks to PADI and NAUI and DEMA, and all their friends. Creating "survival competitions" for people who wish they could win at something, is not going to help diving--it is going to help the niche of generation Xers that need mediocre competitions in order to feel good about themselves. The market for diving is going to shrink. Plan for this, and the real values, located in the right places, will flourish in the long run.

Regards,
Dan Volker