In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Slonda828]

You're telling me. I have to survive that long (we do stuff in the winter other than diving).

Are you looking for day trips, liveaboard, weekend, training, tech, we will do a 3 day wrecks of the Florida Keys Dec. 11th. Vandenberg, Spiegel Grove, and Duane. You're right, it's not on the website because we filanized it last night. The flyer is here.: Dive The Wrecks Of The Florida Keys On the weekend after DEMA, we have a three day advanced nitrox and deco procedures trip with Oceanic Ventures Inc. out of Houston, 3 days of diving. It's not on the web because it's a closed charter, but they might have space for you. I don't know because the boat is closed. I can get you contact info if you're interested, but it's 3 days of nothing but Vandenberg. The Deco Stop is considering a 2 day tech trip to the Vandenberg, Wilkes-Barre and Curb. We haven't finalized it yet, so it's not posted.

The old adage in the industry is that $100 worth of trip takes a month to sell. So, yes, we have trips scheduled for next May, and we're late on those. As this thread is all about, the industry is changing. More and more folks do not plan their diving until the last minute. An operator pulls his hair out trying to balance the needs of the few who have signed up with the realities of last minute bookers. If I take the gamble that I'll get enough to run a trip, I could lose money (and when we lose money, it's not just a little) because we don't get the last minute folks such as yourself. I HATE to cancel within 2 weeks because it doesn't give the guy who has planned his vacation months in advance any time to re-schedule or book somewhere else. But if I run with 3 divers, I lose about $10k in fuel, food, crew, etc.

I'm not whining, just trying to explain a little bit about what and how.

I really respect the fact that you are taking the time to explain to me how this all works on your end. I have been looking for an excuse to take deco procedures, and my girlfriend says that she will take them if there is a valid reason for us to do so. If there is a tech trip that involves deco, or extended range nitrox, and is far enough away (but not like 7 months), then I can get us the training that we would need for a trip like that. As a customer, if there was something on a charter's site that said "hey, this trip, these wrecks, this time, and you need this training and equipment" then that is perfect for me. I can treat it just like another mission (except it would be fun), and then we would have time to train up and go do, and to feel like we had accomplished something. The December 11th thing sounds great. I just need to figure out what equipment and skills we need to do it (and to get training and equipment if we need it).

I know it is not your fault, but the ad hoc nature of your business (by its very design) makes it hard for people to get on your boat and go do stuff. Plenty of us have the money, we just needs the means.

I just looked at that three day trip. What are the depths and what cert levels do we need? It looks like we are staying two nights in a hotel and one on the ship. Is that correct?

I feel like a charter should be an experience. That's what you are selling, an experience. I can pay a fishing boat to take to some GPS coordinates. If I find a place that I can open a document (say a PDF) that tells me the 5 W's of a dive trip, then I buy it. If a single document says:

-These wrecks or this site
-Why you want to dive here
-The conditions (depth, time, gas?)
-The cost
-What is and is not included in that cost
-Where to be and at what time

Then I pay. The last trip I saw like that was in the Bahamas. I bought two trips and two plane tickets that same night. Someone made a killing off of me, but I don't care. I got exactly what I wanted, nobody called me asking me to find more people, and I didn't have to guess at what exposure protection or gear to bring, because they had a recommendations list. It was rock star. I drank beer, I dove, I drank more beer, and we had a great time. If more places could do that, I would probably go on more trips. You have to make it easy for people when they are paying.

 

[Wookie]

I feel (maybe wrongly) that you owe me stuff like that. Your job is to do all the dirty work for me, so I can dive and have fun. I know it sucks, I've done it a little bit. But I want a guy to find me a nice wreck that isn't covered in cattle boats that I have not dove 15 times. I want the information on that wreck, so I know where I am going and so I can explain to my old lady why it is cool and worth her X amount of money. I want a DM that actually knows the name of the wreck and maybe (God forbid) 2-3 minutes of real history about the wreck. I am willing to pay for that. I want to be able to find some of that stuff on your page.

You're not wrong, you're absolutely right. And if you're qualified and certified (and I don't know the former, but can check the latter) I'll take you to places that see only 2 other boats per year, twice per year. And if you want a porthole, I'll take you to a place where you can get one.

You want all the info up front. You are in the military, so you are used to paying attention, listening to briefings, getting the whole story (or as much as your superiors (I use that term loosley) see fit) of the mission. Most Americans have an attention span of about 7 minutes. If I don't hook them in 7 minutes, I don't hook them. So my website is designed to give the fluff, the gloss, the hook if you will. Folks invariably e-mail and ask for details. If you want details, I'll give them up. If you think I should change my website, I'll take it under consideration. Dive shop owners are the worst for short attention span. I can't even sent them a full booking package (terms and conditions, FAQ's, Nice to know, need to know) because I have their attention for about 3 minutes. I very rarely send unsolicited e-mails, and if I do, they are about 3 lines long, because I've lost them after that.

Whatever you want to know, I'll spend hours with you. It's my passion and my business. Most don't want too much info.

By the way, one of my trips next year is crewed by Mike Barnett, who wrote the book on Florida wreck diving. You won't get a better briefing from anyone but him. The site briefing takes an hour (the evening before over beers) with full history of the wreck, the battle that proceeded it, the weapon the navy was testing, etc. etc. That trip we will have a side-scan sonar to look at numbers that haven't been dived yet. Another trip will be crewed by Richie Kohler. Love him or hate him, his stories of these wrecks and others keep us entertained for hours. I happen to think the world of Richie, and he helps new wreck divers when they need to take a porthole etc home.

I think you'll be entertained. Your GF is welcome too. One of the selling points of this boat is that we keep it "girl clean". That means that when she goes into the head, she doesn't have to wonder whose pee she is standing in.

 

[RJP]

I just looked at that three day trip. What are the depths and what cert levels do we need? It looks like we are staying two nights in a hotel and one on the ship. Is that correct?

I think you'll be entertained. Your GF is welcome too. One of the selling points of this boat is that we keep it "girl clean". That means that when she goes into the head, she doesn't have to wonder whose pee she is standing in.

Nothin' personal, but why don't you guys take your trip-planning "hijack" to PM or email?

 

[Slonda828]

Nothin' personal, but why don't you guys take your trip-planning "hijack" to PM or email?

I am not trying to hijack, and I am sorry if I did RJ. I was more using this as a discussion point about why the dive industry is failing (or at least I think it is). I will take the actual trip portion of it private, but I would like to continue examining why this is all happening. I find it interesting, as none of my other activities are shrinking. There have been like three dive shops in the GA/FL area that have gone out of business in recent times, I haven't lost a place to buy climbing gear or outdoor stuff yet. I think charters are a big part of the diving industry.

Dive shop owners were most of the people talking in this thread. I think the focus should be on diving consumers, a group to which I belong. Maybe you marketing guys too Maybe if we can effectively communicate from the bottom up, then diving might change a little. Plus it doesn't hurt that I think the magic of diving is kind of wearing off for me as well, so I am trying to figure out why. I just don't think that dive shops are giving people what they want anymore. That's why they are going online in records numbers instead of walking into shop doors.

 

[DaleC]

No offense and lots of good stuff in this thread but notice how quickly competitive diving got dropped? Still trying to carve up and regurgitate the same old pie. It's not about convincing the existing 40 something out of shape diver to swim laps (yet how many out of shape people watch pay per view UFC fights and wear Tapout T shirts). Who makes the profit there anyways and how did it happen?. In strict business terms existing divers (as they exist at the moment) are already a lost revenue source and the industry is stuck trying to milk an old cow. It's about creating a whole new market place full of people that want to spend money.

That's what competitive climbing did. It tapped into a revenue source of kids who weren't even old enough to drive to the mountains. 14 year olds began outclimbing Yosemite veterans and rather than detract from traditional climbing it propelled it to even greater heights (literally and figuratively). Traditional climbers began sport training to help their conventional game.

How did they ever come up with competitive skydiving? What do they judge? What effect does it have on skydiver retention rates? How does it influence the skill level of todays skydiver. Who sells those suits with the little airfoils sewn in them?

What was the original use for cell phones? Where is the biggest market now? What about computers? What was the original purpose of the internet?

What is so unique about diving?

Competitive diving need not be dangerous either; it can all be done in a pool. Skill and speed. Develop courses that challenges and demands a refinement of skills. If you are landlocked and want to create diver retention what would be better than an indoor scuba gym? Not just lame pool sessions but real well thought out challenging obstical courses that draw divers back time and again. An enterprising instructor would organise events and offer advanced finning classes and bouyancy technique. It opens up the market to a new market of diver, retains the old ones and increases the skill levels of all which will help solve the problem of ocassional divers crashing into the reefs. What if a group of divers created a team that trained regularily and then challenged other teams to a contest.

BTW, where are the really cool Tshirts and other clothing for scuba (mystical three wolves howling at the moon excluded). All I ever see are cheesy shirts with manufacturers logos stencilled on them. Who's creating the buzz, the cool factor? Do only skateboarders where skater clothing?

Of course there are challenges to be considered but I think the biggest one is the cement shoes the current indusrty is trapped in. If you want to find a solution for a problem you don't look at the problem... the solution doesn't lay there. I am reminded:

"Qui audet adipiscitur"

 

[Slonda828]

No offense and lots of good stuff in this thread but notice how quickly competitive diving got dropped? Still trying to carve up and regurgitate the same old pie. It's not about convincing the existing 40 something out of shape diver to swim laps (yet how many out of shape people watch pay per view UFC fights and wear Tapout T shirts). Who makes the profit there anyways and how did it happen?. In strict business terms existing divers (as they exist at the moment) are already a lost revenue source and the industry is stuck trying to milk an old cow. It's about creating a whole new market place full of people that want to spend money.

SNIP

"Qui audet adipiscitur"

I agree totally. I don't own any diving shirts other than ones from trips, because I'll be damned if I am going to advertise for some company that is ripping me off for stuff made in Taiwan with their name stuck on it at the end of the assembly line. I would compete in diving competitions. My girlfriend would too, I asked her. She says the most boring part about diving is that you are paying money to do nothing. There is no purpose or mission to most dives, you just look at stuff. I think timed tasks or nav courses or something would be great fun. I just can't believe that dive shops focus on selling overpriced dive gear. Sure, you rope someone for three grand each when you charge them retail for their open water gear (me included), but later when (if) they educate themselves they are never going to make that mistake again. After I figured out that my LDS bent me over on buying gear, I bought everything since online or off of Ebay. We just need to change the mindset, but that is difficult when you are dealing with old people :mooner:

 

[RJP]

No offense and lots of good stuff in this thread but notice how quickly competitive diving got dropped?

Might speak to the level of interest in the idea?

 

[Slonda828]

Might speak to the level of interest in the idea?

Or to the fact that the type of person who would do that is probably out doing something right now instead of sitting his or her ass in front of a keyboard. Come to think of it....time to go climbing.

 

[DaleC]

I think you are correct RJP.

But here's an advertisement from an old 2015 issue of Competitive Diving magazine I have kicking around:

I remember when they first began televising these events and you could see the divers as they swam through the course. I even caught the event when a certain self professed "Floridian cave diving God" got his azz kicked by a pimply 16 year old from North Dakota.

Ahhh those were the days......

 

[Ana]

....I think the magic of diving is kind of wearing off for me as well, so I am trying to figure out why. I just don't think that dive shops are giving people what they want anymore.

Don't take this the wrong way but from the point of view of an old fart (me), a big part of the problem with today's diving is you. No you personally, but the group of people you represent.

You have some fun money available but you are into several things (activities-sports-whatever) you want to be special but expect that the average operator will adapt to you.

Look around, the average charter doesn't cater to old farts that have been diving forever, they hate us. They cater to divers that require babysitters. I'm happy when they don't treat me like an idiot and you want super duper dive trips and no solo either, you want people to share the experience? oh yeah and you want it now or you'll go climb a wall.

On top of that now you wonder if the magic is still there? seriously? the magic is in the water column; everywhere between the surface all the way to the bottom. Go back and find it.

Not sure today's diving industry will be able to handle you. I think your option is to find your way, not sure of your location but there is a lot of people doing what you talk about on their own in south Florida.