In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[Firefyter]

Well, my goodness, why do we make these poor fellows go through all that training? Regardless of your needs, wants, or expectations, are you going to tell me that you can envision absolutely no circumstances EVER where you would require more from a DM than a "tour guide?" And anyone who thinks it might be a good idea to have someone competent and knowledgeable on board in case of an unforeseen emergency should get off the boat and go back to class?

I'm not saying anything near as drastic as that. I'm saying that for you to have to have them, and to expect them to do more is wrong. If you feel that you can't do the dives solo or as part of a good buddy team, then I don't feel that you should do them at all.

However, even though I'm comfortable taking care of myself, help is always nice if its around when things do get western. There's a difference in taking someone because you want to take them versus taking them because you feel you need to take them. I do appreciate the hard work that they do, but I'm very comfortable knowing that I could do the dives alone.

 

[bhouk]

I understand part of the role of a DM in Cozumel. I also understand the other obligations that come with being a Divemaster, because I am one. New divers, like new firefighters, don't always do what they're taught when the poo hits the fan. Not going to get in a snit with you. I'm a firefighter too. After 28 years, I'm hanging up the bunker gear in December. Have a good day, brother.

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2012 at 09:04 PM ----------

The DM that is required on every dive there is not there to protect the diver. The DM is required by the Marine Park to protect the reefs from the divers. If you're interested in someone to help you personally, it is highly recommended to hire a private DM to attend to your needs.



In other words, they're doing "Trust Me" Dives, which they are taught not to do from day one.

I understand part of the role of a DM in Cozumel. I also understand the other obligations that come with being a Divemaster, because I am one. New divers, like new firefighters, don't always do what they're taught when the poo hits the fan. Not going to get in a snit with you. I'm a firefighter too. After 28 years, I'm hanging up the bunker gear in December. Have a good day, brother.

 

[Firefyter]

I understand part of the role of a DM in Cozumel. I also understand the other obligations that come with being a Divemaster, because I am one. New divers, like new firefighters, don't always do what they're taught when the poo hits the fan. Not going to get in a snit with you. I'm a firefighter too. After 28 years, I'm hanging up the bunker gear in December. Have a good day, brother.

I'm not trying to argue with you, either. I was just answering the question of why we tell them to hire a private DM. You're right, newbies can't be counted on to do as they're taught when it hits, which just reinforces the reasoning to hire their own DM.

Congrats on the retirement. I've got 26 years in, 2 more and I'm out of here as well. I'm livin the dream

 

[Sunny2012]

So you would say it is all about the possibility of depth? In 'not advanced' areas there is always a hard bottom at 130 feet or so? Aren't you just as screwed at 250 feet as 300 or 500? My point being does 1500 feet matter?



So for you it is the current? I sort of always looked at it like the weather. Everyone talks about it, but no one does anything about it. Seriously, though it goes and you go with it. In faster current, the DM parks the leaders behind a coral head in the lee of the current and shortly the group is tight again. I mean I guess that is more advanced than some dunk down, swim around and come back up in the same spot. My later check out dives were on the east side of Antigua. It was surgey I guess. Getting back on the boat was timing the ladder, it came down, grab it and a second later you were out of the water. Now that was hard.



That kinda says the problem is really training doesn't train you? If you are new you are still expected to do all those things you were told not to do? Most of the problems I have watched seem to be comfort issues, like:
1. Not enough weight;
2. my mask leaks;
3. I cant get down.
4. I can't clear my ears.

Most of these divers seem to relax and then things are fine. Is it just me or is most of the challenge in one's own head?




How much diving do you have to do to go to 60-70 feet? For me, from the begining it was the first 40 feet getting my ears straight and in the 'groove'. 40 to 70 didn't seem that different. Other than getting to surface in a hurry, (which means bad stuff is happening anyway) what is the difference but numbers on a console?



Two things this brings to my mind. In a strong current, the group can get a little strung out, but that train is going in one direction. I could never wonder to far off because of the current. Now that I don't get the 'close' eye of the DM like when I was new, sometimes the missus and I lollygag and the group gets ahead while we are taking pics. If riding the reef "low and slow" put us behind, we just come up a little where the current is faster and catch up.

I don't disagree that everyone should have a SMB. I do disagree that the recent accidents confirms it. I *think* all we know is the diver started for the surface. I don't think we know if she surface or if she did, if she remained there. For all we know this could have been some sort of medical issue that caused it and condition had nothing to do with *causing* the loss.

As for the DM, I would say I think divers should be *prepared* to have a DM who is useless for their safety, but they should EXPECT a DM who puts their safety and care at the top of the list. I don't think a tour guide only DM is acceptable.




Well, the definition of necessary comes into question. I have NEVER shot my bag. (Yes, of course I should practice it. Maybe next time?) That being said I have never seen the need. My DM shoots it and delivers divers to the boat as need. I did see another member of our group shoot hers last trip. She didn't NEED to, but she choose to do it on her own rather than let the DM do it. I take it that is the way her usual op does it since she was a rather experience diver. Through the capitan off a bit as he wasn't aware she was going to break the routine and didn't recognize her SMB.

So anyway, my point is you should have them, but you don't need to USE them.



I get the gear sales. I had a great instructor for the class and confined OW, but they did also talk me into the top of the line, just introduced, fins. Man they were expensive..... And 59 is old? I dove with good divers in their late 70s early 80s. Good diver under water. Does it take something away from the younger, fitter, more gung ho diving crowd's ego when old, fat people dive just fine?



Well someday I will try something else. maybe... You keep scarying me with all this talk of no current? So like how far do I gotta swim? Sounds like work..... I might be not young enough, fit enough or experience enough for that!

Seriously though for you current equals advanced? In the Caymans can you not pay attention and go deep enough to kill yourself? It just seems, with the exception of the rare downwellings, most of all the 'issues' that seem to make some think Cozumel is advanced diving is mostly about divers given the opportunity to do stuff they have been trained not to do and thereby put themselves in danger.

Your too funny... I've always felt it is not a race, the slower you go the better the show, so not much swimming on my part in the Caymans. Any dive, anywhere, you can run into issues when not paying attention.

 

[gypsyjim]

I agree with Brules. If your buddy isn't comfortable ascending solo, don't let your buddy ascend solo no matter what anyone else tells you. On the other hand, I believe there's nothing wrong with a solo ascent provided that the rest of the group is aware and the ascending diver is experienced and has a "safety sausage" of some sort (I hate the SMB acronym, sorry).

A diver can call their dive for any reason, at any time. Period. If she chose to be a good buddy, and ascend with her buddy/husband that was her choice, and the boat crew was out of line objecting.

 

[fred3798]

You know, I was starting to feel prett good about diving until I started to read some of the posts that focus on how dangerous th sport is and how DMs cannot be counted upon to be of much use in an emergency. I am at about 60 dives and have my breath control and buoyancy pretty much under control. I move around by breath control and slight foot movement generally and I am always one of the last to ascend when the dive is set to end based on air usage as opposed to time. I can do a saftey stop and hover between 15 and 20 feet without a line from the boat (although I love boats that drop a horizintal bar in Grand Cayman). I have always counted upon the DM for navigation however. I almost never go back to the same place twice, so I never have familiar surroundings. I just follow the DM and ascend where he or she says to ascend. My wife and I are buddies and perhaps do not stay as close as we ought to although we are always aware of where each other is. She likes ot go very slowly and look at every nook and cranny. I get a bit more impatient and want to travel more distance to see more fish and macro views. I have assumed that with good basic skills and always diving in a no-decompression environment, if worse comes to worse, I can always get to the surface in a hurry with my wife or at least keeping an eye on her too. I even have a loud noidsemaker connected to my BCD hose (it was stupid expensive but I got it as a gift), so if I have a problem I can attract attention pretty easily. But SB has increased my concern. The discusion of CO poisoning is troubling - although a low probability occurence it seems. Now we're discussing downdrafts that are stronger than a swimmer with a full BCD. Add the thought that DMs are not really there for safety or that, even if they are, there is not much they can do, has me wondering if the sport is as safe as I thought it was. I have reassured my elderly mother many times that the sport is safe and you have to do something pretty bad to be unable to surface should an emergency happen. If SB posters are tryign to ensure that people stay vigilant, that is one thing. But I am starting to form a view that the is more danger than I realized and the whole notion of PADI certificaton letting people with 2 dives loose underwater with dive operators who are not there to keep them safe, may make the industry a big frightening scam.

 

[Ron Lee]

Fred, first a nit. Scuba diving is not a sport. It is a recreational activity.

Scuba diving can be deadly if something (or multiple things) go wrong. A COMPETENT buddy can help with many problems...if they are there and aware. I am not an instructor so my view may be flawed. You lower the chance of an issue becoming deadly multiple ways. One is with experience. Another is with training. I am a believer in taking scuba rescue training. I believe is acquiring the skills to self-rescue. That way you are a better diver for your wife.

Another point is education. Learn how to cope with a down current and realize that you do not fight it anymore than you fight a rip current swimming on the surface. You swim perpendicular to the current until clear. Read about the response to down currents and you will be prepared if you ever encounter one.

Another point. If your wife had a regulator second stage failure, would you be there in time to help her if she had her backup second stage tangled and not immediately accessible? Then you have the question: Why was her backup not accessible? Were you capable of recognizing an issue before you entered the water?

 

[Sorrows]

So nine pages later and it seems like the one thing we all agree on is that you should stay with your buddy. Good to know.

Have we also agreed on the wisdom/idiocy of hugging the wall when caught in these sudden up/down currents? I guess you risk being slammed into the wall (only on a corner?) but are you generally safer there when the sh*t hits the fan?

If you don't have a sausage, what about waving a fin to signal distress? My son had to do that once, years ago, but I've never seen anybody else do it since.

If I may cite the particular case that engendered this discussion--apparently the husband looked/moved away from his wife to tell the DM he was ascending with his buddy. How long was his attention diverted from his distressed buddy? I wonder if a tank banger or quacker would have been helpful? I know a lot of people don't like them and there are people who abuse them--we use them to communicate with each other, since there are three of us, an awkward number, and we dive a lot by ourselves (Bonaire). But we were the only ones who had them in various groups on our last trip to Cozumel.

 

[RickyF]

You know, I was starting to feel prett good about diving until I started to read some of the posts that focus on how dangerous th sport is and how DMs cannot be counted upon to be of much use in an emergency. I am at about 60 dives and have my breath control and buoyancy pretty much under control. I move around by breath control and slight foot movement generally and I am always one of the last to ascend when the dive is set to end based on air usage as opposed to time. I can do a saftey stop and hover between 15 and 20 feet without a line from the boat (although I love boats that drop a horizintal bar in Grand Cayman). I have always counted upon the DM for navigation however. I almost never go back to the same place twice, so I never have familiar surroundings. I just follow the DM and ascend where he or she says to ascend. My wife and I are buddies and perhaps do not stay as close as we ought to although we are always aware of where each other is. She likes ot go very slowly and look at every nook and cranny. I get a bit more impatient and want to travel more distance to see more fish and macro views. I have assumed that with good basic skills and always diving in a no-decompression environment, if worse comes to worse, I can always get to the surface in a hurry with my wife or at least keeping an eye on her too. I even have a loud noidsemaker connected to my BCD hose (it was stupid expensive but I got it as a gift), so if I have a problem I can attract attention pretty easily. But SB has increased my concern. The discusion of CO poisoning is troubling - although a low probability occurence it seems. Now we're discussing downdrafts that are stronger than a swimmer with a full BCD. Add the thought that DMs are not really there for safety or that, even if they are, there is not much they can do, has me wondering if the sport is as safe as I thought it was. I have reassured my elderly mother many times that the sport is safe and you have to do something pretty bad to be unable to surface should an emergency happen. If SB posters are tryign to ensure that people stay vigilant, that is one thing. But I am starting to form a view that the is more danger than I realized and the whole notion of PADI certificaton letting people with 2 dives loose underwater with dive operators who are not there to keep them safe, may make the industry a big frightening scam.

Fred,
I hope that because of this discussion, people will think about what they are doing. We need to prepare for the worst possible conditions and make sure that we have the necessary safety gear to survive. I love diving a lot, but I have this little voice in my head that keeps me real about what I am doing and will not let me exceed my training. I see way too many divers that come with no safety gear (SMB, whistle, mirror or signaling device), have no concept of buddy diving and you can tell in a short amount of time that they really should have never been certified in the first place. I don't think the intent is to scare people, but to make them aware of the inherrant dangers involved. I have dived in a lot of places, have almost 500 dives and I still learn something everytime I get wet. Just be prepared and BE SAFE!!

 

[diverrex]

You know, I was starting to feel prett good about diving until I started to read some of the posts that focus on how dangerous th sport is and how DMs cannot be counted upon to be of much use in an emergency. I am at about 60 dives and have my breath control and buoyancy pretty much under control. I move around by breath control and slight foot movement generally and I am always one of the last to ascend when the dive is set to end based on air usage as opposed to time. I can do a saftey stop and hover between 15 and 20 feet without a line from the boat (although I love boats that drop a horizintal bar in Grand Cayman). I have always counted upon the DM for navigation however. I almost never go back to the same place twice, so I never have familiar surroundings. I just follow the DM and ascend where he or she says to ascend. My wife and I are buddies and perhaps do not stay as close as we ought to although we are always aware of where each other is. She likes ot go very slowly and look at every nook and cranny. I get a bit more impatient and want to travel more distance to see more fish and macro views. I have assumed that with good basic skills and always diving in a no-decompression environment, if worse comes to worse, I can always get to the surface in a hurry with my wife or at least keeping an eye on her too. I even have a loud noidsemaker connected to my BCD hose (it was stupid expensive but I got it as a gift), so if I have a problem I can attract attention pretty easily. But SB has increased my concern. The discusion of CO poisoning is troubling - although a low probability occurence it seems. Now we're discussing downdrafts that are stronger than a swimmer with a full BCD. Add the thought that DMs are not really there for safety or that, even if they are, there is not much they can do, has me wondering if the sport is as safe as I thought it was. I have reassured my elderly mother many times that the sport is safe and you have to do something pretty bad to be unable to surface should an emergency happen. If SB posters are tryign to ensure that people stay vigilant, that is one thing. But I am starting to form a view that the is more danger than I realized and the whole notion of PADI certificaton letting people with 2 dives loose underwater with dive operators who are not there to keep them safe, may make the industry a big frightening scam.

It’s good you are thinking about these issues. Scuba is a relatively safe activity but one that does have dangers. People do die. Where I live in Los Angeles County we average 4 scuba fatalities a year. The issue of how much you can or should count on a DM is tricky. You should not have to rely on one. You should be trained and experienced enough with your buddy for the conditions and type of dives you are doing. Most DMs I’ve been have been good and I think would react well in an emergency. It’s just a simple fact though that as the group of divers get larger and further spaced out from the DM it starts to become almost physically impossible for the DM to be able to insure everyone’s safety. Keep reading and learning more, take additional classes, and practice safe diving. From the brief description you give it sounds like you and your wife dive further apart than is safe, particularly given your level of experience. Having a noise maker is good but that assumes you are physically able to use it in case of need. It is relatively safe underwater and it can be so enjoyable to see everything it is easy to forget the dangers. I have to continually remind myself that my wife and I should dive closer together.