Equipment If you can't drop your weights and you are sinking

[johndiver999]

One of the many issues discussed here is the ability to ditch your gear. I am new to the backplate/wing setup and am looking at quick release shoulder strap options. I don't love all of the plastic pinch release buckles and am wondering if anyone has experience with the Helium hitch buckle? I've found little information/reviews on using this type of buckle and haven't seen it offered from other manufacturers.

Pros, Cons? what am I missing here?

Yes, you are missing something. Another solution, rather than adding plastic buckles and/or adjustable and quick release buckles on the shoulders, is to have a sliders on the waist strap. This has worked quite well for me on a BP/W. There are a few different off the shelf solutions for this. I don't know anything about a helium buckle.

Also, if scuba divers used a better weightbelt (like an elastic freedive belt with the proper buckle) then most all the objections about a belt will be eliminated - including the danger of the buckle popping open, the issue with the belt sliding, moving or requiring adjustment during the dive due to suit compression. Also some complaints about discomfort, since the belt can be worn in a variety of positions (due to the elastic nature).

Where I dive normally, the water is super warm right now and with a thin, worn out 2 mm suit and a steel tank (and a pony bottle and associated second stage) I require zero lead, but I normally wear a belt with 5-10 lbs of lead on it - with a thicker 3 or 5 mm suit and hooded vest.

I honestly have never had to ditch it in an emergency, but I like knowing that is an option. Should I do so, it will NOT cause an uncontrolled ascent, since I would be neutral at around 30 feet or so. Dropping a modest amount of lead (at depth) is not going to send people rocketing to the surface (say after a BC failure), yet people assume that it will all the time. The physics just does not support that assumption if you are wearing a wetsuit.

In general, it makes sense to have enough ditchable lead that will allow the diver to swim to the surface (after ditching lead) with a disabled BC. That may require anywhere from zero to maybe 16 lbs lead, would be my estimate.

 

[Nick_Radov]

Well two divers in Philippines caught in a strong down current to 90m depth. The guide and another diver managed to get to a wall and hang on for dear life. Divers should be taught to use smb / dsmb for additional lift in an emergency.

That makes no sense. A significant down current can only exist near a structure. This is basic physics (Bernoulli's principle). If you're caught in a down current then the correct response is to swim away from the structure into open water, not to hang on to the structure or deploy a SMB or ditch weights.

 

[johndiver999]

Sure. I am not advocating for ditchable weights being a substitute of attentive buddy or working BCD or well balanced rig. Belts and suspenders.
I can tell you that if I accidentally drop one weight pocket (2 lbs) it is not going to skyrocket me with uncontrolled assent. I have never dropped a weight pocket accidentally. Don’t ask me how I know, but a lost 2 pounder from a trim pocket is barely noticeable - was just a bit light on a safety stop.
Arguably, if at depth you need to establish positive buoyancy emergently - “mashing inflator button” can be more dangerous than dropping 4 lbs in the neutrally buoyant diver. If my buddy sees me pass out, I would rather have them drop my ditchable weight. Certainly , on the surface, I would recommend ditchable weights to be dropped on a disabled diver to help with transfer to boat/land.
I am sure it is very much situation dependent, but to me that is just another contingency.

If I found an unconcious diver on a recreational dive. I would not mess around with trying to find a weightbelt or weight pockets. I would simply grab them and inflate their BC, and hang on tightly. I am pretty sure I could modulate the amount of air in the victim's bc (as well as my own) on the ascent.

If I pressed the up button and no air came out or I saw that air was just venting from their BC, then I would mash MY up button, and hang on. I generally have a decent amount of excess lift capacity in my BC and this exact scenario is one reason why I don't try to minimize the lift capacity of the BC's I buy.

Dropping lead would be my third option for bringing a diver up, partly because it is more complicated than pressing a button.

From a strategy perspective, it makes sense to try to first inflate the victims BC, because if you should accidentally "drop" them, or loose contact (for whatever reason), once you made them buoyant, you can be reasonably sure they will end up on the surface and not sink back down to the bottom. Also, operating the victim's bc is pretty easy, since you can readily see the device, it may even be easier than grabbing your own.

The challenge is to also vent your bc on the ascent, you will need to manage two BC's; if their BC has the capacity, it might beneficial to completely vent your BC on the bottom, so you have only one container to deal with, but that is assuming a lot of moving parts in a life or death emergency.

 

[Edward3c]

If I found an unconcious diver on a recreational dive. I would not mess around with trying to find a weightbelt or weight pockets. I would simply grab them and inflate their BC, and hang on tightly. I am pretty sure I could modulate the amount of air in the victim's bc (as well as my own) on the ascent.

If I pressed the up button and no air came out or I saw that air was just venting from their BC, then I would mash MY up button, and hang on. I generally have a decent amount of excess lift capacity in my BC and this exact scenario is one reason why I don't try to minimize the lift capacity of the BC's I buy.

Dropping lead would be my third option for bringing a diver up, partly because it is more complicated than pressing a button.

From a strategy perspective, it makes sense to try to first inflate the victims BC, because if you should accidentally "drop" them, or loose contact (for whatever reason), once you made them buoyant, you can be reasonably sure they will end up on the surface and not sink back down to the bottom. Also, operating the victim's bc is pretty easy, since you can readily see the device, it may even be easier than grabbing your own.

The challenge is to also vent your bc on the ascent, you will need to manage two BC's; if their BC has the capacity, it might beneficial to completely vent your BC on the bottom, so you have only one container to deal with, but that is assuming a lot of moving parts in a life or death emergency.

This is the scenario BSAC trains as part of core training.

* Ocean Divers practice a Controlled Buoyant Lift (CBL) 6m to surface, then a 5-10m tow - as the boat or surface cover should come to help.
* Sports Divers practice a CBL from 10m to 6m, then rescue breaths and tow.
* Dive Leaders practice a CBL from 15m to 6m, then tow with rescue breathes and landing plus O2 on land/boat.
* Advanced Diver practice a CBL from 20 to 6m, and manage a diving incident.

This is in addition to Assisted Ascents, using an alternate air source. Varying depths relative to qualification, as above.

 

[grantmac]

So you would have been fumbling with a DSMB as this woman sank even deeper in the lake?

For whatever reason, she was over weighted. The absence of a quick release was a contributing factor to her death. She could have embolized on her way to the surface, but that was never an option since she was over weighted and drowned. If she had a catastrophic flood in her dry suit, the inflator hose would still not have done anything and she would still have been unable to swim up her rig and if she had gotten to the surface, she would not have been able to stay there.

If you guys think a balanced rig is the way to go... live and let dive, but I think relying on a your DSMB and accurately planning your weight needs is more risky than relying on a quick release. For a newbie diver, I would say check your gear and learn to self rescue. The OP is a new diver, he should learn to dive with ditchable lead.

That is a little bit like saying a seat belt is equipment solution to training problem. If you drive defensively you will never need it. Ditchable weights is a form of redundant buoyancy. I thought tech divers were all about two is one and one is none? It would seem that not making sure your gear is secured and the quick release in appropriate is the fault of the diver and not the fault of the buckle....

Technical diving in an overhead environment or beyond the NDL is completely different type of diving than your basic OW diver.

Are you say that a diver should vent breathing gas to become buoyant? Really? Which would I rather keep with me on the surface as I wait for a pickup? lead or or air for my regulator and my LP inflator?

I found a 24 lb weight belt diving last weekend I tried moving it up the bottom, but it was a steep rock wall and was a lot of work. I attached my 6' DSMB to it and it was still not enough lift, but it was enough for me to get it to shore. I don't know who lost it, but I know they didn't die. 90% of dead diver are recovered with their weights intact.

You should probably seek out some additional training to understand topics beyond the basics you've been taught before commenting on these topics.

 

[CT-Rich]

Two comments.

One, how do you know the OP is a novice diver? They have given absolutely zero indication of their experience level that I recall seeing. Their profile says they aren't even certified which I doubt is true. Also, this is the Accidents, Incidents and Near Misses forum, not the Basic Scuba forum.

For starters, their profile indicated not certified. They were asking about an incident that involved a novice diver on a training dive. They have not said anything to indicate they are not a new diver and are asking a fairly basic skills question about weights. Maybe they have a few hundred dives since they set up their account, but I would assume they might mention it.

Two, the comment about most dead divers being found with their weights intact is a red herring. You are wanting that to show that if they had simply dropped their weights, they would be alive. You absolutely cannot know that without an accident analysis of each individual incident. Throwing that out is a completely meaningless statement.

You may want to read up on survivor bias.

Survivorship Bias: What World War II Taught Us About Our Mental Flaws | Dean Yeong

During World War II, a mathematician pointed out his observation, the survivorship bias, that saved tons of resources and lives.

www.deanyeong.com

I am not saying that dropping your weights is a get out of jail free card, but that most divers that die are being found with their weights intact.
From the BSAC website:

Weights and weight belts​

• If you are correctly weighted for buoyancy and trim it will make your dive safer, more enjoyable, and you will use less gas.
• You should weight yourself so that you are able to hold a safety stop, horizontally, with near empty cylinders.
• If you are diving with new or unfamiliar equipment, then you should do a proper weight and trim check to make sure you are correctly weighted and can hold horizontal trim without finning or sculling.
• Remember seawater provides more buoyancy than freshwater and so you will need to add weight when moving from freshwater to seawater.
• In the event of an incident it may be necessary on reaching the surface to release weights and the emergency method of weight release should be covered in a buddy check.
• Ensure that any weights or the weight belt cannot be snagged by other equipment. It may be necessary to release other equipment such as BC crotch straps before releasing a weight belt.

From the PADI website:

Standard Features​

• Lead weight in various increments – molded to fit a weight belt, plain or vinyl coated, or lead shot in pouches.
• Quick release that allows you to quickly drop enough weight to float.

 

[Blackcrusader]

That makes no sense. A significant down current can only exist near a structure. This is basic physics (Bernoulli's principle). If you're caught in a down current then the correct response is to swim away from the structure into open water, not to hang on to the structure or deploy a SMB or ditch weights.

Sure if you had read some of my posts one was where a Japanese woman was caught in a down current and I went after her, and had her follow me to the open ocean to get away from the down current. I got to her at around 40m depth swimming away from the island wall we were at. The Japanese lass did not understand why I had her follow me to the open ocean. I explained to her why after the dive.

Don't know how the guide delt with this in Philippines.

Many divers do not know this and use up gas fighting the currents.

My point for the DSMB was that you can use it for a CBL which as another noted is part of BSAC training.

2 Russian tourists died while scuba diving in Verde Island in Batangas City

 

[Blackcrusader]

This is the scenario BSAC trains as part of core training.

* Ocean Divers practice a Controlled Buoyant Lift (CBL) 6m to surface, then a 5-10m tow - as the boat or surface cover should come to help.
* Sports Divers practice a CBL from 10m to 6m, then rescue breaths and tow.
* Dive Leaders practice a CBL from 15m to 6m, then tow with rescue breathes and landing plus O2 on land/boat.
* Advanced Diver practice a CBL from 20 to 6m, and manage a diving incident.

This is in addition to Assisted Ascents, using an alternate air source. Varying depths relative to qualification, as above.

Yup my sports diving manual in 1986 has 210 pages. I still read it from time to time. When I mention CBL training to non BSAC divers they look at me with curiosity saying they have not learned that with Padi OW AOW etc. I was very fortunate to go from PADI OW to a BSAC club 6 months later and spend the next 18 months doing BSAC Sports diving courses and training.

I've had people day they disagree with my using my DSMB to bring a diver to the surface after his BCD failure. The diver didn't disagree lol. I just reply that my DSMB has a dump valve so I could release air to control ascent speed. I didn't want the diver hanging onto me using my BCD for the lift. Who knows if the diver may have panicked.

The diver I brought to the surface also said he never thought of using a DSMB this way. Then again he didn't have one either lol. Oops.

Have you ever been in a life or death situation? Unless you're very well trained or very cool then most people have limited processing power available for analytical thought.

Only once. With a BSAC Dive Leader buddy at Puerto Galera.

Post in thread 'Have you ever used scuba equipment you absolutely hated!'

Mar 11, 2022

Do you really think a panicked diver, out of air, is going to look for an octo?

Yes.

My only serious diving incident was with a BSAC Sports Leader buddy I had done many dives with. We were mid dive when his tie came off his mouth piece he exhaled and the regulator came out and he and he sucked in water. He tried for his octopus and when could not locate it tried sweeping for his octopus but still couldn't find it. We were at 30m depth and he was in a panic and climbed onto my back and took my secondary. Even though his tank had air he was OOA. He also managed to tip us into an...

• Blackcrusader

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Post in thread 'Relative risk in diving'

Mar 26, 2022

Diving should be fun and safe. This does not mean that we should disregard the risks. It’s just a bit more complicated than that.

I dive as I find it very relaxing. Do I plan for incidents to happen on my dives? Not really. Can I deal with things with the training I have had? So far so good. Since January 1986 I have had to deal with one life threatening situation for a dive buddy. I've only had three other divers in an OOA and they were all instructors and I did not see that as life threatening as they simply used my octopus to end the dives safely. Apart from minor things...

• Blackcrusader

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[larrywfowler]

I have no experience of that one but I used to use a Dive Rite deluxe harness many moons ago which had a pinch clip on one shoulder strap. The big issue I had with it was that the folds in my drysuit would sometimes push on the sides of the clip and release it. It was always at the worst possible moment too. I never had a clip actually break on a dive but I did get one get jammed between the slats on a boat bench and get broken that way too.

I went to a one piece harness in around 1997 and have never had any issue. That's on singles, twinsets and two rebreathers so far. Personally I think the ability to ditch your rig is massively overstated. I know people have had to do it to escape wrecks and the like and I can understand it for outlier events like that. As part of my general planning... I personally don't see a likely situation where I would need to. Worst case is cut the straps.

Thank you for this.....I didn't think about just cutting the strap but that makes perfect sense in one of those, this will never happen, scenarios.

 

[clownfishsydney]

Two comments.

One, how do you know the OP is a novice diver? They have given absolutely zero indication of their experience level that I recall seeing. Their profile says they aren't even certified which I doubt is true. Also, this is the Accidents, Incidents and Near Misses forum, not the Basic Scuba forum.

Two, the comment about most dead divers being found with their weights intact is a red herring. You are wanting that to show that if they had simply dropped their weights, they would be alive. You absolutely cannot know that without an accident analysis of each individual incident. Throwing that out is a completely meaningless statement.

His ID says he is not even certified, so that's how I know. Yes, it may be incorrect, but that is what he has showing.