If you are a new diver, please read this

[dumpsterDiver]

Probably depends on the person. Some would rather save the money and do some simple algebra. Others would rather spend the money and not do the simple algebra.

That said, I've yet to see a gas integrated computer that will signal to ascend before your buddy is too low on gas to get you to the surface.

I think it would be easier (and more in keeping with agency methods) to publish tables of gas reserves required at various depths. "Slide your finger down to you and your buddy's combined consumption rate, slide your finger over to your depth column."

I'm confused as to why you think a manual table and a sliding finger would deliver better data than a dive computer, particularly with regard to gas supply and instantaneous breathing rates.

I'm not saying that a beeping computer will save people (from themselves), but as training continues to get dumber and computers get cheaper and smarter, there might be an intersection of cost/benefit that might provide divers another tool. Sorta like the idiot light on your car that goes off when your gas gauge also reads low on fuel.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I dove the Flower Gardens this weekend, which is located 120 mile offshore Galveston, Texas in 100' of water. There was strong current and waves in the upper 15' of water colum. Ascent and decent is accomplished using a line to the mooring cable which you drag yourself down below the surface hand over hand. Dealing with the waves, current, guideline to the boat, and then the secondary line for approaching the rear ladder was challenging for everyone. .....

It was a good lesson in air consumption and planning adequate reserves. ....... One diver was forced to buddy breath at the surface while on the boarding line that was only 20' from the boat.
I am a new diver and from my own experience and preference......... .

I'm glad you learned a lot from your trip, but why in the world would you think a diver needed to buddy breathe at the surface? That sounds like a real danger, if the diver felt that this was necessary. This statement in bold, (possibly taken out of context) seems to represent an almost complete lack of watermanship skills, by both you and the people doing it. Thinking that buddy breathing at the surface is necesary is just crazy.

 

[Blackwood]

Blackwood, you've taken that one sentence out of my post and chose to comment on it as if it were the gist of the entire post.

You were clear. I'm just trying to introduce some humor to the thread.

 

[Thalassamania]

... now, if we're talking about gas planning - that's different altogether as Bryan stated above.; not even sure that OW should/could do it, I learned about it well after my OW add 30+ dives.

There are any number of us here on SB that teach gas management as a full blown topic in our entry-level courses, so it can be done. Can't be done is an excuse used by those who've not tried or who lack the teaching chops to step outside of their agency script and do what's right.

I'm not really sure why this thread got into PADI-bashing

Could it be because PADI claims that entry level students are too stupid to learn gas management in their entry-level course and that is both an irresponsible, disrespectful and disengenuous stand on PADI part? Could it be because when inadequate training and standards are mentioned PADI's initials rocket to the surface like an OOA student?

(I guess I shouldn't really be surprised), but my guess is that Lynne just wanted to get the word out that you should understand gas management and you should be responsible enough to take the time to do the required calculations and put your knowledge to use.

Sounds like a pretty good guess.

It is truly unfortunate that a diver had to die, but if their mistake can go on to save others, their death wasn't in vain. Honestly, even if poor gas management wasn't the root cause of the death, at least it gives us a reason to discuss gas management and point new divers toward good resources (like NorthWestGratefulDiver's and Lamont's rock bottom articles).

It's sad that some OW courses don't want instructors teaching gas management....but at the same time, I understand how they wouldn't want to task the new divers even more (finishing up a course in two days doesn't give a whole lot of time for anything....it would be nice if they would extend the length of OW courses AND add in some gas management information). Maybe the best we can do is hope that divers come across threads such as this, that describe the importance of gas management, and articles that describe what gas management is and how to do it propertly.

It would have been nice if they'd not cut the time to begin with. You're sounding like the kid who killed his folks and threw himself on the mercy of the court 'cause he's an orphan.

Seems to me that it would be an easy thing to add another course after open water and advanced to teach gas management. It would be a win win,,,instructors and lds get to charge for another course, student gets more in depth gas management/planning info.
I'm not saying it shouldnt be taught in open water. I got the 1/3, 1/3/ 1/3 block of instruction, but a mandatory course in between the two courses would be a good thing.

It seems to the that anyone who is certified to dive without leadership personel should be able to to deal with gas management questions (how complicated can it get in a no-D, no-overhead, shallow environment with a single tank?).

You cant go from open water to DM without some courses inbetween, maybe you shouldnt go from OW to AOW uncless you go thru some other courses. They could even combine it, call it Gas Management/ Advanced bouyancy control??

How about putting buoyancy control back were it belongs, in the entry level course rather than as a separately priced product?

Actually now that you mention it there are several "advanced planning" concepts that could be bundled into one specialty. Something like this would probably become a popular course and would probably take a lot of the thunder out of the anti-Padi rhetoric.

R.

Not really, that would not solve the problem of entry-level divers who are unable to plan a dive because they can't deal with elementary gas management questions.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I didn't make any claims about delivering "better data." I was replying to your inquiry about ease of sale. A plastic table is cheaper than an air-integrated computer, no? Plus, it has the advantage of being in the format students are accustomed to, so it would be an inexpensive, non-invasive, uncomplicated addition to BOW curriculum which would put all divers in a buddy team on the same page.

Maybe, but I never dive with a slate or tables, but I do have a computer. Do you expect people to be reading tables before they go diving or while diving? If they are too "busy" to watch a guage, how will they have time to follow a table?

 

[Blackwood]

Before.

I'm going this deep, so I need to start my ascent at no less than xxx.
If they're too busy to watch a gauge (be it depth, time, pressure or any combination of those on some computer screen) it's a moot point.

 

[RonFrank]

Could it be because PADI claims that entry level students are too stupid to learn gas management in their entry-level course and that is both an irresponsible, disrespectful and disengenuous stand on PADI part? Could it be because when inadequate training and standards are mentioned PADI's initials rocket to the surface like an OOA student?

PADI's OW book is 260 pages, or mine is from 1998. Gas management is covered throughout the book. PADI discusses air management, narcosis, the effect of depth on gas in a tank, how to breath, how to dive plan, NDL's, bad air, tank sizes, checking psi, checking the regulator setup and many other things that relate to diving, dive planning, and air consumption.

As getting air is kinda important how could a scuba class ignore gas management? The fact is that it does not.

Keep in mind that the PADI OW class ASSUMES that the student has thoroughly read the book, and understands most of the concepts. The classroom if for Q&A and to review important topics where students need more review. However the premise is that students have read the book, taken and passed the knowledge reviews, and only may need help in some areas where they have questions.

If folks do NOT want to read the book on their own, they can take a college level course where the instructor goes through the entire book, but there is still homework!

The premise of the first post which is that PADI does not teach gas management is simply not true. Could they do a better job... certainly. Do they do advanced gas management.. no. However while everyone wants to blame the agency for this accident, after reading the entire thread, and what little we know about the divers, I think there is more involved here than an agency training issue.

It also would appear that while air may have been an initial problem, several other factors then entered into the mix. No one is discussing buddy skills, or weight issues, but they came into play here, and no one is blaming anything other than PADI training standards. I find that very odd.

 

[Blackwood]

The premise of the first post which is that PADI does not teach gas management is simply not true.

We must have read a different first post. The one I read was about a diver who drowned in events following an OOG incident. No mention was made of PADI or any other agency.

 

[Teamcasa]

Actually now that you mention it there are several "advanced planning" concepts that could be bundled into one specialty. Something like this would probably become a popular course and would probably take a lot of the thunder out of the anti-Padi rhetoric.

Not really, that would not solve the problem of entry-level divers who are unable to plan a dive because they can't deal with elementary gas management questions.

Key words here - entry level divers.
Entry level divers need a whole lot more than just a gas planing class. They need to know that at around 1200 psi, (or typically 15 minutes) they need to head for the safety stop.
They need to work on thier bouyancy, task mangement and situational awareness. They need to know thier limits, arrest thier panic instinct and learn how to ascend slowly.
Once they have these skills under control, then they will soon realize that they need to work on planing thier dives in more detail.

 

[bill-da-ho]

I"m not saying there should be no training in OW, I'm saying there should be additional training befor
AOW, and then expand on each course there after too. To say you should be getting all of your training in the first course is the same as saying you should be taught your entire four year degree in college in the first year. To me, you should gain additional knowledge on each tier of training. That doesnt mean you shouldnt gain additional training outside of formal courses either. That is exactly why I check these post several times a day, I'm trying to learn from people on here, fill in the gaps. Also, I am saying that if the agency doesnt want to spend the time to do this in the OW, then possibly the answer is to expand on what they started in OW, yet do it befor they are running down to more than 60 feet. I would say this also places responsibility on the diver not to exceed their training. just my opinion