If you are a new diver, please read this

[Rainer]

X is what the DM says it is.

Again, you're missing the huge point that many new divers don't dive with DMs. I can honestly say that I've NEVER done a DM led dive. I learned to dive by doing local shore dives. I know that's how LOTS of divers also learn here in CA and certainly where I learned out in MA. We need to calculate our own limits. We have to define "X" for ourselves. Thankfully, in less than 30 minutes, someone can explain exactly how to do this. It isn't brain science (I'd know).

You do a new diver a great disservice if he is allowed to plan dives without knowing when to turn the dive such that he could get himself and his buddy to the surface in an OOG emergency. To me, that's a fundamental requirement of any safe dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

He
The Divemaster, staring into the wide eyed group of new OW divers begins his briefing.
"OK, we are at noname reef. The site is about 50 deep and we expect to see all sorts of cool stuff.
We will descend down the mooring line and head West until one of you gets to 1200 or so PSI. At which point, we will turn and return, make our stop here on the line. Check you air regularly and check your buddy's as well.
I will lead, the other DM, Suzi will follow. Again, check your gauges regularly and let us know what your air pressure is when we ask. Here is how I want you to show me your pressure remaining..."

X is what the DM says it is.

Only problem I see with that ... and as it directly relates to the accident that spawned this thread ... is that nobody around here dives with divemasters. Not even off of dive boats. We are expected ... from the day we get that shiny new C-card ... to plan and execute our own dives.

Now what?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rainer]

All these areas were covered in the first OW class. They were the same numbers given by the instructors for the first OW class and they keep the vast majority of new OW divers safe.

I know that: on a 60-80' dive I can begin my ascent with 750 psi, do my safety stops and be on the surface with 500 psi using a steel 100 HP... There, calculations done

I know this because I do it over and over again.

I reserve more air when I dive deeper...

The point isn't just to teach a new diver at what point to leave the bottom so he has 500 psi remaining (really, who cares?). The point is to teach new divers how much gas to reserve to deal with an emergency at depth such that he and his buddy can safely make it to the surface. That's paramount.

My wife is going through OW right now. For her sake, I truly hope her buddy is being taught how much gas to reserve such that if they had a problem on the bottom and one of them lost all gas, they'd still be able to live. Fortunately, she will know how to do those calculations. Sadly, many new divers will not.

 

[Teamcasa]

Again, you're missing the huge point that many new divers don't dive with DMs. I can honestly say that I've NEVER done a DM led dive. I learned to dive by doing local shore dives. I know that's how LOTS of divers also learn here in CA and certainly where I learned out in MA. We need to calculate our own limits. We have to define "X" for ourselves. Thankfully, in less than 30 minutes, someone can explain exactly how to do this. It isn't brain science (I'd know).

You do a new diver a great disservice if he is allowed to plan dives without knowing when to turn the dive such that he could get himself and his buddy to the surface in an OOG emergency. To me, that's a fundamental requirement of any safe dive.

Only problem I see with that ... and as it directly relates to the accident that spawned this thread ... is that nobody around here dives with divemasters. Not even off of dive boats. We are expected ... from the day we get that shiny new C-card ... to plan and execute our own dives.

Now what?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Fair enough. That's the same here in SoCal.

If you are standing on the shore with your shiny new OW card safely tucked away, gear on and ready to dive, who are you diving with? Another brand new OW diver or someone who has dived that site before?

If you as a brand new diver, plan on diving a brand new (to you) site with your newly certified buddy, you do need to make a plan. And that plan should have included interviews with other divers that have been there and can offer advise and maybe even an invation.

Newly certified divers, diving with other newly certified divers are certainly at a higher risk than those who sought out the advice and mentorship of more experienced divers.

Running out of air because they failed to check their SPGs on a regular basis has little to do with learning how to calculate their SAC and accurately plan a dive and more to do with the fact they are nervous, anxious and maybe a bit macho or to proud to seek the advice of others.

They may even had good training, learned how and indeed made a great dive plan but when they got down, cold, lost and disoriented their plan quickly evaporated with every increasing point of their SAC rate.

My point has never been not to teach it, but moreover to teach them what to expect and what they need to know to keep them safe.

 

[Gombessa]

As a fairly new diver who can still clearly remember his OW instruction, this really seems like a question of standards (as much as I hate that old yarn).

I'm sure that the vast majority of OW reef divers finish every dive just fine knowing nothing more than what I was originally taught: deeper = faster air consumption, and be at the surface with 500psi.

But is that bare minimum really what we should strive for? Now, I know some people who are really questionable in the water; they don't seem to want to expend brainpower on diving, they get equipment without having done any research or having any knowledge about how to use it, etc. But the vast majority of divers that I personally know are pretty smart people. I don't believe for an instant that learning the level of "gas management" presented in this thread would be information overload, or somehow discourage students from completing their certification or divers from diving. And nobody seems to argue that knowing your SCR and planning a dive based on expected profile, contingencies, etc. is a bad practice.

So what's the deal? Is there some fear of liability (x calculated his SAC wrong as taught by agency, and estate now sues agency)? Would it add too much time to a cramped certification schedule? Is it really so extraneous that agencies see fit to put it off until "Advanced" class? To that last point, I don't know of many divers who, after taking AOW, suddenly spring into gas management with enthusiasm. Rather, it seems like they've gotten by just fine without it since OW, and thus are less likely to adopt a newer, more rigorous approach to dive planning learned from a completely discretionary class.

 

[rstofer]

Hey RSTOFER/ Richard, I'm talking about basic openwater. I have no intentions of going for AOW anytime soon or ever as it just doesn't seem like my cup of tea. I'm an average at best freediver of 20+ years and truly belive that all I want to see is in the first 30 feet. I totally agree you should keep your own life in your own hands and watch your OWN SPG religously, but if you got a spare minute and are close enough to check your buddy's....

I would encourage you to reconsider AOW and I would recommend you take it as soon as possible. There are basic skills like navigation, deep, buoyancy and search & recovery that are taught at a somewhat limited level. They are the first dive of the dives required for each of the specialties should you elect to take them. These are all good things to know. And they are supervised dives; a good thing in the early stages of diving.

But the biggest reason for taking AOW is that it is required to take Rescue and I would REALLY recommend you take this class as soon as possible. Like in a couple of weeks if you can figure out how to get AOW out of the way this weekend. Seriously. in my view, Rescue is the single most important class you will ever take. Not just in terms of helping your buddy but, to me more important, self-rescue. Understanding stress and panic. Being able to recognize them in your buddy and in yourself. This class will improve your diving and build your confidence by a huge amount.

Good luck with your adventures!

Richard

 

[rstofer]

So what's the deal? Is there some fear of liability (x calculated his SAC wrong as taught by agency, and estate now sues agency)? Would it add too much time to a cramped certification schedule? Is it really so extraneous that agencies see fit to put it off until "Advanced" class? To that last point, I don't know of many divers who, after taking AOW, suddenly spring into gas management with enthusiasm. Rather, it seems like they've gotten by just fine without it since OW, and thus are less likely to adopt a newer, more rigorous approach to dive planning learned from a completely discretionary class.

Because it makes diving look like a serious endeavor. This is not consistent with increasing equipment sales and, at the end of the day, selling stuff is what the LDS is all about. Nobody cares if the divers scare themselves silly in a few dives and never go again. All they are interested in is selling gear.

Scuba diving must, at all times, be presented as this cute, cuddly hobby that anyone can do with absolute safety. Discussing the realities is probably not consistent with this concept.

Richard

 

[Diver0001]

So what's the deal? Is there some fear of liability (x calculated his SAC wrong as taught by agency, and estate now sues agency)?

I think so. That coupled with both a fear and a realistic observation of how modern diving is performed at the OW level.

The fear would be that people won't apply it (properly) because it's a hassle and if you don't teach them more "catch all" ways of monitoring their gas they might either do the wrong thing or do the right thing the wrong way and get themselves in trouble. all through the dive training you can clearly see the agencies looking for 'one size fits all' solutions. The one size fits all solutoin to gas management is to watch your SPG diligently and surface with a sufficient reserve.

The observation is that probably 90% of new OW just swim around behind a dive master and let a lot more than their dive planniing over to whatever fate may bring. Probably if you taught everyone strict dive planning around SAC calculations and made that the "norm" for appoaching recreational dives, you'd throw a big wrench in the gears for the tourist operators.... They'd have to totally rethink how they do their dives because the 'trust me' element would be seriously undermined. The resort market has a *lot* of influence in the content of the training and I personally think this is one thing that would be approached differently if that were not the case.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Running out of air because they failed to check their SPGs on a regular basis has little to do with learning how to calculate their SAC and accurately plan a dive and more to do with the fact they are nervous, anxious and maybe a bit macho or to proud to seek the advice of others.

They may even had good training, learned how and indeed made a great dive plan but when they got down, cold, lost and disoriented their plan quickly evaporated with every increasing point of their SAC rate.

My point has never been not to teach it, but moreover to teach them what to expect and what they need to know to keep them safe.

Well stated. And in fact, I don't believe for a moment that a lack of gas management skills led to the accident that spawned this thread. Lack of awareness, perhaps. Or simply reacting emotionally when calm, rational action was called for. We don't really know why ... but this woman WAS alive when she surfaced.

Although I'm a firm proponent of good gas management skills, I don't believe that's the lesson that newer divers should be taking away from this discussion. I believe that message is to pay attention to the skills you DO learn in OW ... if the instructor doesn't make it clear why they're important, keep asking him or her to explain why until you DO understand. Then get out and practice those skills until they're second nature to you. Don't take that next class till you're comfortable with the skills you learned in this one ... because therein lies the path to task loading, and skills avoidance ... and then when you need it, you have to remember what it was you were supposed to have learned.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Gombessa]

I don't believe for a moment that a lack of gas management skills led to the accident that spawned this thread.

Hi Bob,

Maybe I'm making up an idiosyncratic distinction between gas management and gas planning, but if it sounds like they failed to watch their gas, and potentially failed to reserve adequate gas in order to make an ascent without an OOG occurring, then the failure that precipitated the complications at the surface was in fact a lack of gas management, which may have happened even if they had prepared a perfectly acceptable gas plan beforehand?