Ice Diving Warning

[JamesP]

James welcome back. Yes ice diving can be very dangerous if not done properly, so taking a course is definitely the way to go. I have to admit my passion for diving though stops as soon as the water becomes solid.

1. A recent air analysis no more than a week old showed a dewpoint of at least -65 F. What most divers do not realize is that the dewpoint on that certificate is only representative of the day the sample was taken. The longer the time frame from the analysis date the higher (less negative) the dewpoint will become and hence the greater the chance of reg freeflow. The natural history of filtration media over time is too become less efficient as oil and water are removed, and adsorbed by the drying agent and charcoal. What may have been very dry arctic air three months prior has now become tropical moist air only good for diving down south in warm water.

Call me anal but "things going wrong in the worst way" is definitely an understatement and not a situation especially if preventable one would want to repeat. Knowing one's tank air dewpoint in the field before entering into this extreme environment would seem like a simple manoeuver and aspect of gas mananagement worth examining.

Any other ideas?

Pufferfish,

I did not offer up too many details in order to keep the report from turning into a novel. The post was long enough as it was. I do not have any ideas as to what happened. I did however locate the source of the problem and corrected it. Therefore I do have the answer ( no guess work here) as to what went wrong.
I will not call you anal, I will just say that you are very much mistaken in the reasoning you have post above. As I stated in the initial post the dive was posted to illustrate how badly a dive can get despite the best preparations.
I am on my way to work so I do not have the time for detailed explanations. As soon as I get clear I will post the answer. It is really very simple and has nothing to do with dew points.

As much as I appreciate your crusade regarding air testing and air quality please do not post it here. Start a new thread to keep the topics focused. You still own this entire forum an apology for the misleading information you have been posting in regards to air standards in Ontario, again please post the apology in its own thread. It does not belong here. Please before you start ranting and raving keep in mind that i have been talking to the Ontario Ministry of Labour and they do not say anything like you have been saying. What they have to say is very simple and very clear and not open to interpretation. If you really want to discuss publicly what I know about Ontario Ministry of Labour Air standards post a new thread with your references and I will gladly post mine. If I am proved wrong I will happy concede to and comply to the correct ministry standards. BUT it does not belong here.

 

[ygthad]

I should have mention that, thanks,

Here is a couple of reason why we do it.

These were taken this time last year, no lights about of ice overhead.

Pictures look great.. viz. looked like it was good too. Thanks TomR

 

[MikeFerrara]

Interesting read that post Pufferfish but,

Sometimes it just happens "stuff" that is. During the month of Feb of last year I saw every major regulator available at the time free flow and that included the almighty Poseidon. Tanks were filled at different locations and regs were serviced by some of the best people in the business. Sometimes the weather gets you. No problems in Jan, Mar and so on it just was during the cold snap of Feb.

Again thanks for the education, more things to think of.

I don't mean to interupt or change the subject but we see many free flows also. We don't seem to have them though. Years ago I had one of my old sherwoods free flow at the surface because the purge was bumped while climbing into a hole in the ice and I've had to let some regs sit in the water for a while to thaw out after sitting in the truck over night after they were used.

A free flow in a reg that's suitable for cold water, tuned correctly and used correctly should be pretty rare.

I agree with the main point though that cold water dives in an overhead (especially when other complicating factors exist) aren't to be taken lightly.

 

[Kevin R]

I don't mean to interupt or change the subject but we see many free flows also. We don't seem to have them though. Years ago I had one of my old sherwoods free flow at the surface because the purge was bumped while climbing into a hole in the ice and I've had to let some regs sit in the water for a while to thaw out after sitting in the truck over night after they were used.

A free flow in a reg that's suitable for cold water, tuned correctly and used correctly should be pretty rare.

I agree with the main point though that cold water dives in an overhead (especially when other complicating factors exist) aren't to be taken lightly.

Mike

This definitly belongs in this thread. A freeflow at max penetration, such as in the dive James described, is the reason we are getting in the water with as many regulators as we do. This is one of the greatest challenges and the worse possible problem in this type of diving.

When I started ice diving, I was carrying all my gear to the site in the back of my truck and waiting until the last minute before getting anything wet. The thinking was that it was the water temp causing the freeflow. What would happen is that the temp of the regs would drop below freezing and when the gear hit the water, the regulators had to "thaw" to ambient temp. This often resulted in a freeflow when the cold gas flowed through the reg. and the second stage mechanisms froze open. Now I carry my regulators in the cab of my truck and immerse my stage bottles as soon as the regulators go on. I wait until all my other gear is set up before putting the regs on my backgas. This way the regulators cool to ambient temp in the water and never drop below it by being allowed to freeze in the colder air temperatures, and I am able to avoid freeflows. Most of the freeflows that occur in the winter are preventable. Any reg regardless of manufacturer will freeflow if it is allowed to get too cold before hitting the water. All it takes is one breath taken too deeply or quickly and a reg will start to let go. Sometimes there is no explaning it, you do everything right in preparation, but you still end up with problems.

 

[JamesP]

good post james. Hoopfully i can see the wreck by the end of the summer if i can do it safely.

eric

Eric, I think your skills are coming along nicely. I am not sure how my schedule is over the next few months but I would like to spend a little time with you in the pool. I would also like to get a few dives in with you once the ice is out, maybe from mid to late March and into April.

 

[JamesP]

A free flow in a reg that's suitable for cold water, tuned correctly and used correctly should be pretty rare.

I agree with the main point though that cold water dives in an overhead (especially when other complicating factors exist) aren't to be taken lightly.

Hi Mike

Thanks for the input; like Kevin said your post is very appropriate to this thread. You hit the nail on the head. The IP on the regs were high. Set #1 was a pair of MK20's and the IP had crept up. My set of DS4's had just come of the service bench and the tech had set the IP to the manufacture's specs, not the usual 125psi that I dive with. The faults were pickup immediately once back at the vehicles. We have since discontinued the use of MK20's and each diver verifies the IP of all the regs after servicing.

 

[JamesP]

This is not an incident that one would wish on anyone and could push even a very well trained diver towards that panic threshold, something we all should try to avoid. Great to hear that the three of you made it back to shore safely, but one really wonders what lead to this 'close' call.


It is probably safe to make the following assumptions about the equipment and dive technique in this incident.

1. You all had high performance environmentally sealed 1st stages and both stages tuned for such an environment.
2. Regs were not breathed until first stage submerged.
3. Wings were filled in small amounts on descent and never at same time as inspiration.
4. Swim to and from site was done in relaxed state by very fit divers so as to keep respiratory rate down and regulator flow rates.
5. Swim was done at shallow depths to minimize first stage flow rates and adiabatic cooling.

Personally I would not attempt this type of 'triple black diamond' dive unless one of the following conditions were met:

Pufferfish,

This dive was NOT A CLOSE CALL as you put it. I used 170cft of gas on the dive; therefore I got out of the water with 50+cft to spare. Diver #1 got out with 100+cft of gas. Diver #3 got out with 130+cft. Therefore at the end of the dive we still had 280cft of gas to our names. If I had of breathed my tanks dry I would of just more on to Diver #3 long hose and continued on. This event was an inconvenience to us. We were in the situation and had to get on with the dive and get out. In order to get out successfully we had to put out training and experience into high gear without compounding the issue. That is actually what we did. We managed the failures and got out. Situations like this become close calls as you let the control slip away from you. It is absolutely vital to resolve the failure before it balloons out of control. We did that. We got gas to each diver. Each diver was on the same page and on top of their game. There was no time or room for discussion. You have to get the job done and get out. This is why training and experience are the most vital components in diving.

Close calls do not happen when you have the support in place. If we had of been a 2 man team that might have come close. But that is why we prefer to dive in 3’s, at the time this meant we had 660+cft at the start of the dive. Now we like to start the dive with 220+cft of gas in reserve per diver in the water.

Your point #3 is a fallacy: Yes wings should be filled in small amounts, but if you cannot rely your regs to pump gas into your wing and haul a breath off them when you need it; then they are no good for the environment you are planning to dive. Your regs have to be able to supply all your needs when you need them to, else they are useless.

Your point #4 is a fallacy: If you have to keep your respiratory rate down else your regs will fail they are of no use to you. A regulator has to supply all the gas you need when you need it, else it is better used as a paper weight.

Your point #5 is a fallacy: If a regulator can only be used on the shallow part of the dive it is useless to you. A regulator has to perform regardless of depth, temp or current; else it is useless to you.

I am glad that to brought these points up as they are often and easily over looked. These are a few equipment considerations that you need to address before you proceed to dive. It is also important to remember to first put the right thinking, training and experience in place before all else

 

[DeepScuba]

Did I here correctly? 220cft of gas in reserve before the dive?

Maybe I'd better hear a tad more about THAT dive before.............

I think I'm missing something.

 

[JamesP]

Did I here correctly? 220cft of gas in reserve before the dive?

Maybe I'd better hear a tad more about THAT dive before.............

I think I'm missing something.

We keep all our back gas on reserve and dive with stages. It part of our training. Come down and check the set up out sometime. We are there most Sundays.

 

[DeepScuba]

At 220cf, You must!

Naw, I'm too old for that crap. But thanks for the invite. I'll stay top side with.........TomR........ bwaaaahhhhhhhh.

Oh crap he's gonna kill me !!!!!!!!!!!

tehehehheh