I think I have been "had" just a bit

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Well, I've maintained the same stance through all those threads and this one too so, disagree or not, at least I know what my position is. Yours, however, changes like the wind.

If your position now is that:
there is some risk with 6351 alloy,
that the risk can be mitigated with proper inspection,
that it is reasonable for a shop to insist on their own vip before filling
and that every shop has the right to fill, or not fill, such a tank if it wishes...

then I say hurray! we are in agreement. I will however not agree with your stance that it is ok for you to require an unnecessary hydro on such tanks. That to me, is meaningless destructive testing that doesn't do anything to detect SLC.
My position has never changed and here's the last thread where we spoke of it.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/299668-looking-used-tanks-7.html

You keep using the term unnecessary as if that's a fact. You do in fact understand that hydros are done for a myriad of reason and not just because the stamped date says so right? One of those is susceptibility to SLC, a drop to concrete, fire, any number of reasons that may cause a CRACK. I'm glad to see you have latched on to the last vestige of credibility you have but all is for not. The FSO cannot diminish from the rules but they can certainly supersede them. Truly, I'm done with you.
 
I guess you're gone which is ok but I did just want to verify that, if someone brought an unknown tank (to you) for filling, currently in hydro, that you would still require a second hydro before you filled it. Just so there's no mistaking your "stance".
 
I guess you're gone which is ok but I did just want to verify that, if someone brought an unknown tank (to you) for filling, currently in hydro, that you would still require a second hydro before you filled it. Just so there's no mistaking your "stance".


From http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/299668-looking-used-tanks-5.html

That is the stance of the shop for a questionable 6351 bottle. Here is where I told you this before. Hydo testing PRIMARILY looks for cracks that can't visual be seen as is eddy current testing. Combined with a good visual inspection you mitigate the risk of putting a bad bottle into circulation. Which IS THE POINT. It was NEVER to condemn bottles outright. That was YOUR projection.

Yawn, like I said. If WE aren't familiar with the bottle and it's history we don't fill them.


This is based off of all the information you just dug up. This isn't new.

MANY "inspectors" are not PSI trained or have little to NO training at all when it comes to this.

When we get unfamiliar bottles made from questionable materials we explain to the customer that we would be happy to fill it just as long as they allow us to hydro it and vip it.

Nowhere did I say condemn the bottle.

Why don't you go take the PSI course, it will keep you from having to root up all this old information?
 
Wow, I guess I really struck a chord here, didn't mean for it to turn into such a debate, but I guess the discourse of information is better for the people.

On a side note, my diving instructor was kind enough to give me another hydro and VIP after he heard happen. He is in aggreance with me that I was scammed a little, if someone where local they may know of Marine Systems, which like I said earlier has NAVY contracts for their work. So for a little run down hole in the wall dive shop to call their work bad is pretty incredulous.


One thing that did occur to me though, is people seem to potray themselves as patron saints about how all these bottles should be condemned and taken out of circulation because of the safety hazardand risk to the fill operators. But in reality in comes down to money, if these tanks cost say 1000$ dollar each, I can say with some confidence that most of the safety mongers would be singing a different tune. And it would probably go something like this

"bHWAH you want me to replace this cylinder that has never failed me and passed every test for a new one that costs 1000$, when the one I have is suppose to last 40 years, you have lost your damn mind"

Obviously because of how cheap they relativley are, this is not the case, so the ease to replace them is a lot greater then the hypothetical situation I described, my point being, people who are on the other side of the fence are right in what they are saying, but shouldn't use the high-horse pedestal to preach the sermon from. Because like I said, its money, not safety driving this.

Something else that occured to me is, this could also be conceived as a way for scuba shops to essentially make more money. If a product has a 40 year shelf life, that doesn't bode well for profits, but if you place limits and arbituary regulations on it " We won't fill tanks older then 10 years" Well then you just created a condition for people to possibly have to buy from you every 10 years rather then 40.


In conclusion, I am a pilot, well working my way up right now, I am 24, not flying for the big carriers yet. But something that comes to mind is, I can't remember precisley what flight it was, I believe it was PanAm, where the front fuesalage completley seperated from the rest of the plane (a Boeing 747) for no apparent reason. Speculation flew, like terrorism, fire on board, etc. But what they found was it was caused by the copper wiring that had been used on all planes up to that point. It was found that this copper wiring had a very very very slight propensity to spontaneously combust when certain conditions where met (a was the case of the PanAm). This copper wiring had been used on pretty much every plane produced up to that point and the airline manufactures where left with a decision to make. Obviously all planes manufactured after this point would have a "new and improved" wiring. But what to do with all planes still in service (which today in the US is still pretty considerable) It was determined that the cost of replacement would go into the billions and it would trickle down to the consumers in some form or another to about an extra 200$ for round trip tickets. Suddenley all the people clamouring for safety shut up. So, like I said, it comes down to money, not people caring about other peoples safety.



Btw, an interesting fact about that, the presidents 747 fleet all had their wiring replaced to the sum of about a million dollars of our money :)...so maybe some peoples lives are worth more then others
 
Wow, I guess I really struck a chord here, didn't mean for it to turn into such a debate, but I guess the discourse of information is better for the people.

On a side note, my diving instructor was kind enough to give me another hydro and VIP after he heard happen. He is in aggreance with me that I was scammed a little, if someone where local they may know of Marine Systems, which like I said earlier has NAVY contracts for their work. So for a little run down hole in the wall dive shop to call their work bad is pretty incredulous.


One thing that did occur to me though, is people seem to potray themselves as patron saints about how all these bottles should be condemned and taken out of circulation because of the safety hazardand risk to the fill operators. But in reality in comes down to money, if these tanks cost say 1000$ dollar each, I can say with some confidence that most of the safety mongers would be singing a different tune. And it would probably go something like this

"bHWAH you want me to replace this cylinder that has never failed me and passed every test for a new one that costs 1000$, when the one I have is suppose to last 40 years, you have lost your damn mind"

Obviously because of how cheap they relativley are, this is not the case, so the ease to replace them is a lot greater then the hypothetical situation I described, my point being, people who are on the other side of the fence are right in what they are saying, but shouldn't use the high-horse pedestal to preach the sermon from. Because like I said, its money, not safety driving this.

Something else that occured to me is, this could also be conceived as a way for scuba shops to essentially make more money. If a product has a 40 year shelf life, that doesn't bode well for profits, but if you place limits and arbituary regulations on it " We won't fill tanks older then 10 years" Well then you just created a condition for people to possibly have to buy from you every 10 years rather then 40.


In conclusion, I am a pilot, well working my way up right now, I am 24, not flying for the big carriers yet. But something that comes to mind is, I can't remember precisley what flight it was, I believe it was PanAm, where the front fuesalage completley seperated from the rest of the plane (a Boeing 747) for no apparent reason. Speculation flew, like terrorism, fire on board, etc. But what they found was it was caused by the copper wiring that had been used on all planes up to that point. It was found that this copper wiring had a very very very slight propensity to spontaneously combust when certain conditions where met (a was the case of the PanAm). This copper wiring had been used on pretty much every plane produced up to that point and the airline manufactures where left with a decision to make. Obviously all planes manufactured after this point would have a "new and improved" wiring. But what to do with all planes still in service (which today in the US is still pretty considerable) It was determined that the cost of replacement would go into the billions and it would trickle down to the consumers in some form or another to about an extra 200$ for round trip tickets. Suddenley all the people clamouring for safety shut up. So, like I said, it comes down to money, not people caring about other peoples safety.



Btw, an interesting fact about that, the presidents 747 fleet all had their wiring replaced to the sum of about a million dollars of our money :)...so maybe some peoples lives are worth more then others

There is almost ZERO mark up on AL80 sales and I mean ZERO and a $30 dollar hydro after it's all said and done is a true bargain. It's not about the money for anyone but the individual that needs a new tank (if it fails)

Let me clarify, you are correct in that it is in fact about money as well as safety, just not profit. So IMO not really the motivating factor.
 
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Something else that occured to me is, this could also be conceived as a way for scuba shops to essentially make more money. If a product has a 40 year shelf life, that doesn't bode well for profits, but if you place limits and arbituary regulations on it " We won't fill tanks older then 10 years" Well then you just created a condition for people to possibly have to buy from you every 10 years rather then 40.

That is all well and good, but dive shops make next to nothing on new tanks. Plain and simple they are sold pretty much at cost. We make more selling a mask than a AL80.
 
Something else that occured to me is, this could also be conceived as a way for scuba shops to essentially make more money. If a product has a 40 year shelf life, that doesn't bode well for profits, but if you place limits and arbituary regulations on it " We won't fill tanks older then 10 years" Well then you just created a condition for people to possibly have to buy from you every 10 years rather then 40.

Or, the first time they say such an ignorant thing, they have lost a customer for life!

I agree with ditching the 6351 tanks. They just aren't worth the risk. As I said much earlier, that would be my business decision as well.

But the DOT never said 6351 tanks had to be scrapped. They said that as long as the tanks continue to pass periodic testing they can continue to be used. Forever...

The idea of limiting the life expectancy of a tank from multiple hundreds of years to 15 is simply ignorant. I don't really accept 'ignorant' very well. I'm just vindictive enough to buy a compressor and fill the tanks myself. Sure, my cost per fill will be astronomical but I just can't deal with ignorance.

Richard
 
That is all well and good, but dive shops make next to nothing on new tanks. Plain and simple they are sold pretty much at cost. We make more selling a mask than a AL80.

Why is that???

Why would a dive shop price a mask (which can easily be ordered and shipped online from deeply discounted sources) with a higher margin than a scuba tank?
 
Why is that???

Why would a dive shop price a mask (which can easily be ordered and shipped online from deeply discounted sources) with a higher margin than a scuba tank?

Now- I could be wrong about this, but the simple answer is we always sold tanks at just about cost- our price from the company plus shipping to the store. There was never enough demand for tanks to make it profitable to stock a bunch in different colors, etc... and we are talking about South Florida. Maybe bigger stores could, but we could not. (We could note the big stores are almost all out of business, and the shop I worked in is still doing just fine after seventeen years. Anyway...) If we ordered a bunch they sat in the store as the hydro dates ticked-tocked. It simply made more sense to order as they were requested and we would get them in two or three days as a service to our customers.

Therefore no money made on tanks, but we sold many, many, many masks that were, of course, not sold at cost and at the same price or better as online sellers.
 

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