I tasted the Kool Aide and it didnt agree with me

[Jason B]

Why are you addressing these comments to TSandM?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I would assume it is because she is the moderator.

Divin'Hoosier, just don't click on the DIR link if you are so upset that no one here really cares what Chatterton has done.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Divin'Hoosier, just don't click on the DIR link if you are so upset that no one here really cares what Chatterton has done.

I don't, but I do occasionally stumble in here from New Posts. Must Be More Careful!!! This place can be dangerous to ones sense of historical perspective.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would assume it is because she is the moderator.

Then a PM or hitting the Report button is the appropriate response.

One should not assume that Lynne just hangs out in this forum and reads everything that gets written here. Sometimes she has better things to do ... and there are other mods who could handle it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Divin'Hoosier, just don't click on the DIR link if you are so upset that no one here really cares what Chatterton has done.

Better yet, don't waste time responding to trolls who refer to non-DIR divers as "ditch diggers" ... it's folks like that who give DIR a bad reputation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I've participated in this thread, so I am not moderating it.

It's become an interesting test case of the "hands off and let the participants sort it out" approach to the DIR forum, which was one of the suggestions I got when I asked how the forum should be managed. I don't think it looks as though that works very well.

Anyway, to address the question of "instruction" in GUE courses: In my Fundies class, the instructor gave us a great deal of help with kicks, including patterning our feet through the kicks on land, and doing the same thing underwater. That's how I got the frog kick. He gave us feedback on buoyancy and trim, and some tips on better buoyancy control. He demonstrated bag shooting on land (as much as you can) and underwater, and critiqued the performance of those who got as far as trying that skill.

I don't think you can TEACH buoyancy control. I think you can describe it, and you can try to tell somebody what you've figured out about managing it -- Monitoring your breathing, or the way your drysuit feels, or watching the particulates in the water as a reference -- but a diver has to practice and build facility on his own. Buoyancy control is a HUGE part of both of the GUE classes I've taken, along with trim. Now, trim I think you can help somebody with a great deal, in terms of working with weight redistribution and body posture. I didn't get much help on my trim, except to be told that it was okay as long as I wasn't task-loaded, but fell apart when I was. The answer proved to be that I was weighted in such a way that I could compensate for it when I had enough bandwidth to do so, but when distracted, I went where my weights wanted me to go. Moving a few pounds up onto the cambands solved the problem, but I figured that out for myself.

My current frustration is awareness and good decision-making underwater, and I don't think you can teach that, either. At least, I've asked for ideas in a lot of places (not necessarily GUE places) and I've gotten a lot of advice to go diving, but very little in the way of specific ideas. So I don't fault my instructor for not "teaching" this. He provides us with opportunities to practice it, and feedback on how well we accomplish it, and I think that's about what's possible. Maybe I'm wrong.

There are really tons of Fundies reports on the web, on ScubaBoard and elsewhere. There are many discussions about preparation for Fundies. I know, because I think I read them all before I took the class. I knew that it was a bad idea to take the class in gear you weren't familiar with, so I borrowed the gear I used a month ahead of time. I knew that buoyancy control was key, so I worked very hard on it. I was thrilled to watch the video of my "Basic 5" and see that I stayed in place and almost at depth throughout. That was something I could work on on my own before the class, and I did. Having that much pretty close to dialled in made the rest of the class far more useful, although I didn't come close to passing.

Somebody who goes into the class in brand new gear, with marginal or poor buoyancy control, is not going to be able to spend much time learning kicks, practicing air-shares, or learning bag shoots. We had two very new divers (8 and 16 dives) in our Fundies class, and I'm sure they were about as frustrated as Caribbeandiver was. One of them went off and worked on his diving for over a year, and came back and retook the class. I believe he was very happy with it the second time.

DIR is not for everybody. Good buoyancy control, control of your trim, the ability not to silt out a dive site, good buddy skills, sharp emergency procedures, and excellent situational awareness ARE for everybody who dives. Fundies is a good place to get a toehold on those qualities, and I don't know where to send somebody who isn't interested in DIR diving and be sure they'll get them.

 

[Bob Sherwood]

Hi all,
I have read the entire thread and just wanted to say a few things. First to the OP, I can easily see your frustration. Of course this is not the intended outcome from a fundamentals course. The goal of a fundamentals instructor, is to be both an educator AND an evaluator. Possibly you got more evaluation than education. Really hard to say without having been there, but I myself have tripped over this in my own teaching over the years. <blush>
the objective in fundamentals should be to show/demonstrate skills and drills that will enhance in water comfort and performance and safety. To pass on knowledge on dive planning, gas selection, equipment configuration, and procedures related to our philosophy. It is easy to see if buoyancy or trim are off, but to really educate, one must help people resolve areas that are deficient in performance. It sounds like the OP did not get the help they needed in this particular area. Apologies. (if interested pm me and possibly I can help resolve this issue)
Public opinion about DIR is heavily debated, but often not totally understood by those doing the debating. Agreed that commitment at the highest level is reserved for far les people, however overall an industry has benefited from its existence and continued teachings. One of GUE's goals is to continue this process. Contrary to popular belief, other instructors from other organizations are integral to this mission, and are helping with this part of our goals when they educate their students with this information(Thanks to all of you)
I want to address previous failure rates discussed in this thread, because I think it is important for people to understand the evolution. As correctly stated in the beginning when the course went from a workshop to a pass/fail, there were a high number of failures. But, this places the value of the course on a pass/fail vs the information/experience gained value. Sad really, but a part of human values not likely to change.
Understanding that the "pass" in those days only allowed the person entrance into the next level of GUE training. Passing one that was not really ready for the next level created much more problems for everyone in the entire system. for sure the system need revamping. This of course took some time, but has been done. The rec or Tec endorsement, and the addition of a Nitrox certification. Also early courses were shorter and many taught by traveling instructors without the ability to offer reasonable follow up. I likely had the highest failure rate in the instructor core. Frustrated with that myself we looked at bringing the time needed to pass on all the information as well as giving enough in water time for most people to meet the standards at at least the recreational level. The minimum time was raised. Personally, I have added even more time to that and have found that the success rate is very favorable. Not sure of the exact number, but I would put my fundamentals pass rate at somewhere in the 85% range. and The success rate for those that receive the Tec endorsement very high for their next course, into the mid 90's.
While I agree that committing to GUE and its standards clearly is not for everyone, i believe that we as an industry will benefit from all of our instructors regardless of agency if we continue to look for ways to educate all students, and that we continue to improve the methods used to do that. Best, Bob Sherwood/GUE Training Director
Cell number USA 607-765-3942

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

While I agree that committing to GUE and its standards clearly is not for everyone, i believe that we as an industry will benefit from all of our instructors regardless of agency if we continue to look for ways to educate all students, and that we continue to improve the methods used to do that. Best, Bob Sherwood/GUE Training Director
Cell number USA 607-765-3942

This is certainly true in my area ... a growing cadre of recreational instructors from various agencies are taking at least the DIR-F class, in part to learn different ways to integrate more emphasis on basic skills into their own curriculum.

I know that my own motivation for taking a GUE class stemmed not from the desire to "be DIR", but rather the desire to be a good recreational instructor. I know several local instructors who, while not buying into the holistic system, have benefited from GUE training and have "raised the bar" in terms of what they teach their students. In that respect everyone does, in fact, benefit.

As Lynne so eloquently stated ... DIR is not for everybody. Good buoyancy control, control of your trim, the ability not to silt out a dive site, good buddy skills, sharp emergency procedures, and excellent situational awareness ARE for everybody who dives. You don't need to "be DIR" to learn these skills ... but you DO need to learn diving from an instructor who recognizes the importance of these skills, and knows how to teach them. As a recreational diving instructor, GUE classes were a great place for me to gain some of that knowledge ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cacia]

and I don't know where to send somebody who isn't interested in DIR diving and be sure they'll get them.

I think modern society is very conditioned to expect that everything is provided "somewhere" and I see diver's individual goals and an autonomous approach to learning slowly being estinguished out of existence. There is probably more material "out there" than I can learn in a lifetime, so paying a fee and taking a class is not the only solution. People are losing the ability to assess their needs and teach themselves from a set of priorities they have chosen. I am certainly not suggesting classes are worthless, but don't underestimate how much you can seek and teach yourself. And if divers don't know where to go, perhaps they should look inward and assess their individual diving a bit more. DIR or not.

And of course, this notion will never be popular. There is no market force to drive it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think modern society is very conditioned to expect that everything is provided "somewhere" and I see diver's individual goals and an autonomous approach to learning slowly being estinguished out of existence. There is probably more material "out there" than I can learn in a lifetime, so paying a fee and taking a class are not the only solution. People are losing the ability to assess their needs and teach themselves from a set of priorities they have chosen. I am certainly not suggesting classes are worthless, but don't underestimate how much you can seek and teach yourself. And if divers don't know where to go, perhaps they should look inward and assess their individual diving a bit more. DIR or not.

But this only works if one knows what to look for ... (which is the basis of the approach GUE takes in providing tools and expecting their students to then go out and use those tools to better themselves).

To use an analogy ... my first trip to Barkley Sound, on the west coast of Vancouver Island. The first couple of dives, several divers were coming up just marveling at how many Puget Sound king crabs they had seen. Cheng and I were flummoxed, as we were doing the same dive and hadn't seen any. So we said so. On the next dive, another diver swam over to us, reached down, picked up a huge crab, and handed it to us. Once we'd seen what they looked like, we were surprised to note that they were everywhere around us.

Sure, people can learn on their own ... but they must first have some idea of what it is they need to learn ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

... Sure, people can learn on their own ... but they must first have some idea of what it is they need to learn ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ah, yes ... the teachable moment, even for self-teaching.