I tasted the Kool Aide and it didnt agree with me

[rockjock3]

Carribeandiver,

If you couldn't get your bouyancy down then the problem wasn't the gear. You are just comfortable in your BC and have probably trimmed it to correct for other problems in trim. Since you are so familiar with that then the BP/W gave you problems. Hands down a BP/W will give you better buoyancy and trim every time period. Yes it and you have to be setup correctly, but again, that isn't the gears problem. BCs put their buoyancy below the tank, when you are horizontal, which force you to move weight towards the front, if you are not negative yourself. BP/Ws put their buoyancy along the sides of the tanks, which, when you are connected puts the of the weight balance point below the center of buoyancy.

No don't get me wrong, I wasn't born DIR and am sure that I don't follow ALL the philosophies. I was an OW diver first and had about 75 dives before I was won over to the dark side. I am one that questions everything and trusts nobody. I researched BP/W setups and DIR extensively. It made sense so I tried it. I already had spot on buoyancy/trim and understood the physics behind how it is created from one equipment configuration to another. My transition was mostly seamless.

I dive (as you can tell by my avatar info) in 75-81 degree waters year round with viz that approaches 150-200 feet much of the time. I have recently made the move even further by getting technical certs upto Trimix I and technical wreck penetration. The pure joy of being able to use all my gear rigged exactly the same for single and doubles is amazing. I simply undo two wingnuts and move my BP from my single sta and wing to my doubles and wing. No change in trim, buoyancy or anything. Everything is fits exactly the same.

Not everybody here that dives in the same conditions you do dives a BP/W for tech stuff. I have several friends that dive them just because of their superior buoyancy and fell of freedom when you have one on. I put on a BC and I feel like I am wearing a coat. I put on a my BP/W and I might as well only have my wetsuit on because it just dissappears in the water.

My 02 psi.

 

[bolantej]

I would like to try DIR one day, but not if it means I am gonna become arrogant. I have not read the GUE manual...is this a requirement?

 

[rockjock3]

I now only have one question. While DIR does so many correct things and I now see so many things wrong in how OW instructors teach their students diving, I wonder why there isnt a middle ground. How many of us have no interest in tech or cave diving but have interest in becoming safer, better divers? Where do we go for that? Please dont tell me Advanced open water courses or master scuba diver, we all know those dont cut it.
I know, it isnt true that if you are not DIR you are going to die. But, I also know that normal OW classes do not produce competent divers. Learning proper gas management is important, being taught to get back on the boat with 500 psi, without any concept as to how, is ridiculous.
Lastly, I would just like to add a comment regarding my LED Photon Torpedos. Man, those are great lights.

One big reason is money.

Many people simply want to get certified to dive for that once a year trip with charters in beautiful lands with crystal clear waters and warm temps. Still more people just want to get certified to dive and will pick the dive shop with the fastest route. The certifying agencies cannot make money if they force everybody to take a $500-1000 class just to do this. They would lose business to the agencies that had the cheaper faster course. The result is that OW classes, for most agencies only require basic information to be taught to new divers so that they have a basic knowledge of skills to get through diving. It is up the the individuals to seek out more advanced training if they so chooose.

Now notice I said the agencies require basic information to be taught, and am not faulting the agencies for that decisions (not that it is the best for safety). I say that because for many agencies the are no restrictions on instructors to expand on some of the skills and there are many great instructors out there from many agencies that to expand on the absolute minimum mandated by their agency and work to send their new divers out with better skills than most.

There are other issues out there, but this is a big one.

 

[Peter Guy]

Back to the OP's original post (which I believe IS appropriate for the DIR forum).

It sounds like you did learn some things in your DIR-F class and I have to agree with you that getting taught some of the "skills" of DIR-F can be problematic -- especially the "skill" of proper trim.

I'll also say you set yourself up to fail by not getting, and using, a BP/W prior to the class. I took "Essentials" using my BC while the other two members of the class both had new gear (one using a BP/W for the first time, the other a dry suit for the 2nd time) and they flailed because of their gear.

You are right that "DIR" (whatever DIR might be) is not for every diver. The "average" diver gets wet less than 10 times a year and that is NOT enough to be a safe DIR diver. It is clear that being a DIR diver requires a commitment to diving that most people don't have.

Interesting thread.

 

[Charlie99]

I now only have one question. While DIR does so many correct things and I now see so many things wrong in how OW instructors teach their students diving, I wonder why there isnt a middle ground. How many of us have no interest in tech or cave diving but have interest in becoming safer, better divers? Where do we go for that?

A related question has to do with the focus on gear configuration rather than dive skills, planning, organization and philosophy. There also doesn't seem to be a middle ground for people that, for one reason or another, choose not to use the standard DIR gear configuration, but still are interested in the improving their diving. Breakthru Diving/5thDx seem to have made a start at being able to separate the specific gear config from the rest by not requiring strict DIR gear config for their Essentials course.

One reason I would really, really like to see GUE finally get around to release their OW course materials is that signficant portions of them would probably be adopted by a lot of OW instructors.

==========================

Although the OP didn't say it explicitly state in these words, it sounds like one of his major frustrations was that the DIR-F was all test and no instruction. It reminds me of a discussion on rec.scuba several years ago when a non-graded DIR-F was just being added as a prerequisite to Tech 1. Some DIR divers were proud of the very high failure rates in Tech 1. Other instructors pointed out that, in many ways, such a high percentage of failures was an indication of poor instruction, or insufficient class time for the instruction to actually train the students rather than just demonstrate the goal. It sounds like the same sort thing here again, but with respect to DIR-F as a pass/fail class.

The GUE OW class may be of value in this area also ---- supposedly it should be long enough, and sufficiently oriented towards actually training divers that a diver that applies himself should be able to pass the OW (or REC 1 or whatever it will eventually be called) course and be ready for further training.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm skeptical that there will ever be a GUE OW class ... for a number of reasons.

First off, who would teach it? There are a very limited number of GUE instructors out there ... and most (all?) of them were instructors for some other agency prior to going the GUE route. Will these instructors really want to get back into teaching completely new divers again? Somehow, I doubt it. Many of those guys don't even want to teach Fundies anymore, preferring to stick with higher-level classes. Therefore, it would require an entire corps of new GUE instructors who were brought in specifically to teach OW and Fundies.

Then there's the requisite length of the class ... and associated cost. Given that the typical person shopping for a diving class doesn't know enough to understand the difference between a GUE class and a PADI class, how would you convince them that the GUE class would be worth the additional investment in time and money? It's hard enough convincing someone of the added value of a $300 OW class over the $99 week-end special. Just try explaining why they need to spend $1,000 or more, and take a class that spans several weeks. You'll mostly get friends and family members of existing GUE-trained divers ... which might be enough, considering the limited availability of instructors mentioned earlier.

Finally, there's that failure rate ... it's at the core of GUE classes at all levels. Only a minority of people ever pass the first time around. That works for existing levels of GUE training, because the people taking the class come into it as certified divers, and therefore can go out and practice skills between provisional and pass. That paradigm won't work with an uncertified diver, as they won't have the means to get out and practice on a regular basis prior to coming back for "qual" dives. GUE will have to rethink how they present the class, and do so in a way that kicks up the initial pass rate significantly. I'd be interested in seeing how they manage that within the limitations of time, money, and available staff.

I think these are some of the fundamental reasons this class has been talked about for several years now, and is still not a reality. There are some significant issues with the way GUE is set up to function that will have to change before an OW class is a viable option ... and of the GUE instructors I've met to date, I am skeptical that they'd be willing to make the necessary changes to make it viable.

Nor do I think doing so would necessarily be a good idea ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cacia]

Reality.

 

[dirdiversrule]

They all dive deep air.

Maybe if Chatterton wasn't diving air all the time he would have identified the wreck correctly and Gentile wouldn't have had to write a book to set the record straight.

You crack me up. Non-DIR diver = ditch digger. You just can't help but look for a fight. So I guess Gary Gentile, John Chatterton, Brett Gilliam ... I could go on ... are all ditch diggers?

 

[josh]

I would like to try DIR one day, but not if it means I am gonna become arrogant. I have not read the GUE manual...is this a requirement?

LOL. I have often looked at DIR/GUE as something I would like to do - but the arrogance and dare I say it fanaticism was rather off putting. Two months ago was on a boat with a GUE instructor in UK and had a nice chat with him. Great guy, and it turns out the fanatical arrogance is not compulsory at all!! Amazing.
-j-

 

[Adobo]

One just has to laugh at just about every thread that is in this forum anymore.

We should rename this forum to "DIR/GUE Complaints Department". That way, everyone can get every grievance out of their system.

Then we should create another forum where people who have an honest desire to learn about or share knowledge regarding GUE/WKPP diving methods can go to do just that without controversy. (Maybe make it an opt in forum?)