I tasted the Kool Aide and it didnt agree with me

[lamont]

Exactly my point, no computers means that the permissible depth tolerance for decompression is one foot, if that too DIR for DIR, well ...

huh?

it has nothing to do with the presence of a computer or not.

if you take two divers on the same dive and give one diver 20 minutes of O2 at 20 feet and another diver 20 minutes of O2 at 18 feet, I betcha the differential risk of DCS isn't statistically significant...

i can also speak from experience that i've gesticulated wildly to tech2/cave1 trained divers who popped O2 regs in their mouths at 27 fsw, and those divers didn't instantly tox... if everything goes completely to **** with manifolds exploding and masks being ripped off and long hoses being deployed and the whole team drops from 20 feet down to 25 feet on O2 they're still not going to die unless they sit down there all day after the emergency is over, and that's a 5 foot window...

i think a better gauge of a diver's fitness to technical dive would not be how perfect their buoyancy window is under the maximum amount of stress, but if they have the awareness to spit an O2 reg out and go back onto backgas if they're chasing a teammate down who has lost it bad...

 

[WJL]

I'd suggest you read through the threads I posted above. Clearly some instructors are encouraging no mask ascents, line laying, and 1' tolerance in their GUE-F courses.

I don't get all this whining about no mask ascents, line laying and tight buoyancy control. Why are these bad things to ask people to do?

 

[Rainer]

I don't get all this whining about no mask ascents, line laying and tight buoyancy control. Why are these bad things to ask people to do?

They're great things at the RecTriox / Tech 1 level. If GUE-F divers are spending all their time at the quarry working until they can hold 1' stops, instead of going out and getting experience applying GUE-F skills in every day dives, I believe (my opinion) GUE is doing a disservice. The standards for GUE-F were designed so divers who met them would be ready for Tech 1 after they went out and got some experience applying those skills they learned in the class. What's changed so we need to go above them and hold students back? Did something break?

 

[Rainer]

I don't get all this whining about no mask ascents, line laying and tight buoyancy control. Why are these bad things to ask people to do?

And if you think a crash course in line laying in GUE-F is the place to learn how to run a real (as opposed to Cave 1), well...

 

[WJL]

And if you think a crash course in line laying in GUE-F is the place to learn how to run a real (as opposed to Cave 1), well...

I found it was helpful to have some experience running a reel before taking Cave I. I think practicing no mask ascents is a good thing to do rather than wait and see how it turns out when it happens the first time by accident. Trying to hold bouyancy carefully while doing this or that is a worthwhile goal.

What is the objection to striving to be a better diver? Or to an instructor teaching that way? Is it too hard??? Are you saying these things are so terribly difficult that it's wrong to include them in a Fundamentals class?

 

[Rainer]

I found it was helpful to have some experience running a reel before taking Cave I. I think practicing no mask ascents is a good thing to do rather than wait and see how it turns out when it happens the first time by accident. Trying to hold bouyancy carefully while doing this or that is a worthwhile goal.

What is the objection to striving to be a better diver? Or to an instructor teaching that way? Is it too hard??? Are you saying these things are so terribly difficult that it's wrong to include them in a Fundamentals class?

You're missing the following very simply point: if these issues are so crucial, why aren't they in the standards at the GUE-F tech level? Why is GUE not turning to you to write the standards?

 

[Sloth]

They're great things at the RecTriox / Tech 1 level. If GUE-F divers are spending all their time at the quarry working until they can hold 1' stops, instead of going out and getting experience applying GUE-F skills in every day dives, I believe (my opinion) GUE is doing a disservice. The standards for GUE-F were designed so divers who met them would be ready for Tech 1 after they went out and got some experience applying those skills they learned in the class. What's changed so we need to go above them and hold students back? Did something break?

The current DIR-f class places a heavy emphasis on diver and team awareness, not just skills, buoyancy and trim. To get a tech pass you have to demonstrate team awareness skills at a tech level

I think it would be hard for someone to get a tech level team awareness pass if all they did is spend their time at the quarry working on 1' stops as you put it.

 

[WJL]

You're missing the following very simply point: if these issues are so crucial, why aren't they in the standards at the GUE-F tech level? Why is GUE not turning to you to write the standards?

I'm not writing any standards. I'm just talking about diving. I think the things you're complaining about are good things to learn. If I ever perfected those skills, I would be a better diver for it. If an instructor teaches those skills, it's something to be pleased about, not get upset over.

 

[Rainer]

I'm not writing any standards. I'm just talking about diving. I think the things you're complaining about are good things to learn. If I ever perfected those skills, I would be a better diver for it. If an instructor teaches those skills, it's something to be pleased about, not get upset over.

Holy crap, of course they're good things to learn. The problem is (and this doesn't apply to me), many GUE-F students are spending ALL of their time (before and after their class) sitting in the quarry working to get their buoyancy while task-loaded down to 6" (in order to get a tech pass it appears from certain instructors) instead of applying GUE-F skills in realword dives. Having skills and no experience is a bad thing, agree? This is just a question of putting one solely in front of the other. If you're reading more into my posts than that, you've mis-read.

 

[Rainer]

The current DIR-f class places a heavy emphasis on diver and team awareness, not just skills, buoyancy and trim. To get a tech pass you have to demonstrate team awareness skills at a tech level

I think it would be hard for someone to get a tech level team awareness pass if all they did is spend their time at the quarry working on 1' stops as you put it.

Thanks. Seeing as I did the class at the tech standards, I'm pretty sure I know what was needed. My complaint is against moving the focus away from standards, which were clearly designed to get students ready for safe diving and future courses. Sure, wanting to aspire to greater standards is wonderful, but it MUST be tempered with gaining experience. It's clear some students are missing that. That's ALL I'm pointing ouit. Got it?