I panicked, lived, and learned...

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New or rusty divers don’t want to disappoint anyone and the Dive Master/Captain knew and exploited it.

So...what is the advice you'd give to keep divers safe?

I contend that any degree of blame to the operator does not serve your safety.

I am saying that there is another side to the story, that is all.


fit as your Marine Corps husband?
Well, I am certainly not as fit as many of the people I dive with and I take that into account or I'd be in big trouble. I thought I tried to make that point by pointing out my own failures.
The dive world is getting a little out of touch, IMO. We can never discuss fitness level as a factor, just like any other variable without it being said that someone is being *slammed*-- I see that as a dangerous situation rooted in denial.
 
One of the most difficult things for new divers to do is not go with the flow. I see new divers pressured into making stupid decisions just because the “whole boat agreed” and they, not really knowing any better, agreed as well.

Goodness yes ... if there's any lesson to learn here it's not to say OK if you don't feel OK.

That's one of the most common mistakes new divers make ... usually because they put pressure on themselves not to "ruin it for everybody else".

Lots of accidents happen because of that rationale ... and new divers need to understand that it's perfectly fine to say no if they don't feel right about any aspect of the dive.

Had that conversation lots ... they say "but I don't want to ruin your dive", to which I reply "you'll only ruin my dive if you put me in a position where I have to rescue you".

Never be afraid to say no ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
This is a huge fallacy for newly certified divers.

The entire OW class is based on: "The instructor says 'Do this', everything will be OK."
That's a pretty broad brush you paint with. I ask more questions of my students than I provide answers. My entire OW class is about teaching students to think like divers, not become mindless drones. I don't think I am that unique in this.
This leads to new divers that are conditioned to follow instructions, so when a new diver signs up for shallow, easy dives, gets to the boat and finds that the operator has decided to go somewhere "not shallow and easy", they'll still do it.
Personal responsibility, don't exceed training/experience, anyone can call a dive are all pretty commonly taught in the OW courses I am aware of....... What classes are you referring to?
The OP signed up for shallow dives they were qualified for and was pressured into accepting deep dives they weren't qualified for.
What pressure? Did something get edited?

It was 100% the operators responsibility to not take a new divers on a dive that was 3x their previous maximum depth, regardless of how agreeable that were, especially when that wasn't what they signed up for.
Terry
I've done this dive with this operator and would have been utterly pissed if i got stuck on a shallow reef with crappy vis. It's an easy dive, imo.

I'm not bagging on the OP, she learned a lot about personal responsibility and limitations. Ops get hosed either way they play it.
 
New or rusty divers don’t want to disappoint anyone and the Dive Master/Captain knew and exploited it.
So...what is the advice you'd give to keep divers safe?
Don't let others pressure you into doing something you are not comfortable doing.
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

I've deleted a couple of off-topic posts.

Remember peeps that this is the Accidents and Incidents forum. It is sometimes difficult to admit you've made a mistake let alone post it for strangers to see and comment on. The OP never mentioned asking for money back nor did she name any names. If you've made some assumptions and commented on things that you weren't there to withness I ask you to please refrain from doing so in this thread. (Twenty people can see the same incident but each will have their own perspective on what happened.)

Peer pressure is hard to overcome even as adults, and I give the OP snaps for realizing her mistake and to put herself 'out there' while posting her story.
 
That's a pretty broad brush you paint with. I ask more questions of my students than I provide answers. My entire OW class is about teaching students to think like divers, not become mindless drones. I don't think I am that unique in this.
Personal responsibility, don't exceed training/experience, anyone can call a dive are all pretty commonly taught in the OW courses I am aware of....... What classes are you referring to?

I'm referring to classes where the students are told to do things like "Take this perfectly good regulator out of your mouth, throw it away and then go retrieve it." Pretty much the entire OW class is built around getting the new divers comfortable in conditions where screwing up could easily result in their death.

After an entire OW class being told to do things that by definition exceed their normal comfort level (like breathing underwater), it's easy for a student (now OW diver) to feel that when someone supposedly in authority tells them to do something else outside their range, that it's OK and they should do it.

I've done this dive with this operator and would have been utterly pissed if i got stuck on a shallow reef with crappy vis. It's an easy dive, imo.
These people signed up for an easy dive and were given an "advanced" dive. This is exactly what you would be pissed about, only in reverse.

Ops get hosed either way they play it.
The op was hosed as soon as he decided to promise two different sets of people two different experiences on the same dive. To come out of this with everybody happy, the operator needed only to promise one type of dive to everybody then deliver it.

Terry
 
The op was hosed as soon as he decided to promise two different sets of people two different experiences on the same dive. To come out of this with everybody happy, the operator needed only to promise one type of dive to everybody then deliver it.

Sometimes, due to conditions, this is not always possible.

Should he have dived the other three and cancelled her? (Without ever taking a vote)

or should he have put them all in dangerously poor viz at thirty feet because that was the plan before the heavy rain the day before?

I think one reoccuring theme I see, is that conditions of dive sites (current, viz, number of divers)
complicates this to the point where certed divers must make their own call OR the operator must make it "for them"

It is a tough position to be in as an operator, no? Since it was a three tank charter, another option was for her to opt for the two shallow dives only.

This dilemma comes up over and over, so the question extends past this particular diver. I think the local dive industry has not found a good answer to this question.

When conditions change, whose responsible for making the call for a certified diver? Is it okay to say to the group "I think these three can go and this one should not?" Should the opertor then proceed to give reasons? I think that is what is frustrating the operators here on Oahu.

Our dives are the most challenging, in my opinion, partly because most of our commercial dives are deep wrecks. Yet, the truth is, of all the islands, we get the weakest divers. Partly because we get many people diving here just because they are here for conferences and conventions, are on tighter timelines, are on *junkets* to Waikiki (yes, that means you get less "serious" divers than you get, in Kona, say. I have dived all the islands commercially and independently and I observe that we get the highest percentages of lower experience levels.
It is just a reality of the Oahu diving industry that the dive professionals here must grapple with. Personally, I think exploring the options and the ethics is useful. It is always easy to blame the operators, I just have not found this to ever serve my personal safety very well, even in cases where it is valid.

If you die, it does not matter that the operator made a poor call or one that is interesting to debate. *Defensive diving* is much like defensive driving....
Motorists do many irrational wrong things while I am on my bike. I've had to learn that being upset with them and getting lost disecting their errors will not serve me. To stay in one piece, I have to assume and accept they will all do stupid things and I must anticipate and respond. Blaming them is really distracting and counter productive. It takes my attention away from manuevers and observations I need to focus on instead.

My plea for people to assess their fitness level comes from an earnest place. I dive with fit guys and I'm not so fit compared to them. It is all relative. I did decide that being aerobically conditioned was probably the number one thing that I could do to improve my odds. I feel passionate about bringing that up whenever I can. Seeing who dies and why has only convinced me more that it is factor should not be brushed over.

It does not matter that I am a nurse with years of critical care transport experience, 35 years of diving, a divemaster, lived here for eight years. I will always be regarded as taking cruel shots at women not at their ideal weight. That is okay, I can accept it, and try and be helpful anyway. I've done a lot of CPR in my day and feel compelled to speak up.
 
Sometimes, due to conditions, this is not always possible.

Sure it is. You promise something, then you deliver it. If the conditions are dangerous, then you cancel the dive.

Should he have dived the other three and cancelled her? (Without ever taking a vote) or should he have put them all in dangerously poor viz at thirty feet because that was the plan before the heavy rain the day before?
Voting has nothing to do with it. If I go out to dinner, order steak and they're out, the rest of the table doesn't get to vote on what other dinner I get.

Also, there is no such thing as "dangerously poor viz." It might have been bad vis, but 30' of calm water isn't dangerous even if the vis is 10'.

I think one reoccuring theme I see, is that conditions of dive sites (current, viz, number of divers)
complicates this to the point where certed divers must make their own call OR the operator must make it "for them"
The boat ride became "complicated" before it ever left shore. As soon as the boat contained two sets of divers with two sets of incompatible expectations, it was all downhill from there. The solution is to promise the same thing to everyone, then either deliver it or cancel the trip.

If the shallow dive was impossible to do that day, and the alternative was a deep dive, the operator should have said "I'm sorry, but the shallow site is inaccessible today. We're going to a deep site that you don't have the training for. We've refunded your money and hope you give us a call the next time you're in the area."

When conditions change, whose responsible for making the call for a certified diver? Is it okay to say to the group "I think these three can go and this one should not?" Should the opertor then proceed to give reasons? I think that is what is frustrating the operators here on Oahu.
The term "certified diver" gets tossed around a lot, but in reality, the C Card doesn't impart the knowledge and judgment necessary to make the right call for an unfamiliar site. At least with new divers, it's up to the dive op to say "Sorry, this dive wouldn't be a appropriate for you"

My plea for people to assess their fitness level comes from an earnest place. I dive with fit guys and I'm not so fit compared to them. It is all relative. I did decide that being aerobically conditioned was probably the number one thing that I could do to improve my odds. I feel passionate about bringing that up whenever I can. Seeing who dies and why has only convinced me more that it is factor should not be brushed over.
I'm not sure what fitness has to do with diving. If you're working hard diving while doing anything except climbing the ladder, you're doing something wrong.

It does not matter that I am a nurse with years of critical care transport experience, 35 years of diving, a divemaster, lived here for eight years. I will always be regarded as taking cruel shots at women not at their ideal weight. That is okay, I can accept it, and try and be helpful anyway. I've done a lot of CPR in my day and feel compelled to speak up.
So stop making comments. People are who they are. Telling some 400 pound woman that she's a lard-ass, isn't news, won't make her feel any better about herself, won't make her a better diver and certainly won't make her any thinner.

Unless you're this person's doctor, and are doing it in private, taking another person's inventory is never a good idea.

Terry
 
He did give all of us the chance to say no and we didn't. Off we go....

Voting has nothing to do with it. If I go out to dinner, order steak and they're out, the rest of the table doesn't get to vote on what other dinner I get.

I agree, but don't order the chicken when they are out of steak and then spend the rest of dinner whining about how you were screwed out of steak. The OP gets it, why don't you?

I'm not sure what fitness has to do with diving. If you're working hard diving while doing anything except climbing the ladder, you're doing something wrong.
I've seen out of shape people look like they were going to die just gearing up. The "something wrong" they are doing is engaging in a sport which can have high physical demands.

As an instructor, obesity is a red flag for me. I'm sorry if that offends some people, but people need to understand their limitations, because there is only so much we can do to save you when those limitations are exceeded.
 
Maybe I missed it ... but nowhere did I see the OP discussing her body weight.

She did mention that she was overweighted ... but that's easily resolved by taking some lead off your weight belt.

Are we confusing terms here? Or are some folks making assumptions that because this newly-certified diver had difficulty doing a dive she wasn't qualified for, that she must have been overweight?

Talking about the people being out of shape or overweight, and bringing it up out of context, are two entirely different matters. In this case, I think it's just confusing the real issue ... which is that this diver talked herself into doing a dive she shouldn't have been doing.

I think the conversation would be better served by staying focused on why that happens ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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