I panicked, lived, and learned...

[Teamcasa]

...I think the conversation would be better served by staying focused on why that happens ...

Like I said before, It happens because new divers are afraid to speak up and some divemasters and (some of) the more experienced divers are pressing it so the result is that the new diver is pressured into doing something they did not sign up for because they don’t want to disappoint anyone.

It is about the economics first and safety second.
A small dive operator does not want to refund the two divers and only have two divers left. He needs four at a minimum to operate. Hence the pressure on the new divers.

 

[sea nmf]

It is a tough position to be in as an operator, no? Since it was a three tank charter, another option was for her to opt for the two shallow dives only.

My issue was the statement that the 3 shallow dives were not profitable. Really bad form there.

 

[Cacia]

I'm not convinced that was what he said, in context.

It is not profitable for him if she has an accident, feel unhappy and post this either.

I think he did the best he could and he had a DM for four divers. Low viz and current with new divers is much more dangerous than 100 ft anyway. If you can't see them, its tough.

I'll ask again...what should he have done? cancelled her and taken the other three? based on what? what she said, what he observed, the date of her cert?

very simplistic to say "deliver the dives planned"

OKay, now you have had 6 inches of torrential rain the day prior and the deep site is very doable but the shallow ones have poor viz and more current.

What do you do, please???

Telling some 400 pound woman that she's a lard-ass,

I did not do that. I said that you have to have an honest assessment of your fitness level, because the operator is not the one to do that.

I went on to say, I must do that myself often. You guys are very sensitive.
I give up.

I can tell you, I have had some PM from people who say it is an issue but would never post. Nobody wants to be accused of being mean, it's way worse than being overweight or unfit, lol.

Like I said before, It happens because new divers are afraid to speak up

So how does placing any blame on the operator help them do that?

Is that her responsibilty or his?

I'm not sure what fitness has to do with diving.

Okay, now I see. I am 100% IN DISAGREEMENT. That is the problem.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people agree with you. No hard feelings, I am pretty passionate about this. I think people (especially divers) are in a very deep denial about this.

 

[DeltaWardog]

Have to agree with you Catherine. My wife and I have been busting our ass to get back into good shape after lazing about all winter, just to do "easy shore dives" in a month, because we both know that if anything unplanned should happen we need to be in good shape to deal with it.

Do you need to be in good shape to float along at 50 ft on a Cozumel drift dive? No.

Do you need to be in good shape to deal with something going wrong on that dive? Yes.

So it's really about being prepared and surviving a bad situation, in my mind.

 

[alcina]

I could be wrong here, but I think that the fitness issue is NOT an issue in this thread or the OPs original post.

It was brought up later in the thread and really is off topic to this thread. Not that it isn't important and not that it probably doesn't deserve it's OWN thread, but this thread is not the place as it is not germane to the issue at hand...which keeps getting lost.

 

[Cacia]

Do you need to be in good shape to deal with something going wrong on that dive? Yes.

I see it as relevant too. When your anxiety goes up or you feel overwhelmed and stressed it comes into play in an important way, physiologically.(Vasoconstriction, increased peripheral vascular resistance, increased 02 demand, HR, increased BP, myocardial ischemia, little things we would rather not think about)

I disagree with you Alcina because what is at question is who needs to assess the diver and the dive "appropriateness" as Terry referred to it.

The operator asked me to explain his dilemma and I did the best I could.
One side of a story where everybody just agrees with everybody else is not so useful.

I agree, it is off topic if nobody cares about it.

 

[divinginn]

something I am surprised nobody mentioned was that she was more than likely narced,100 ft was plenty deep for that to happen,she mentioned she went back to the line and started breathing better,did she ascend to go to the line?I would say probably and going up just ten ft could mellow out the narcosis making breathing easier. I got my first taste of narcosis a few weeks ago on a 130 ft dive,I felt some anxiety coming on even though I was comfortable with the dive otherwise,went up to about 100ft and the feeling went away and I thought to my self I just got narced.

 

[alcina]

Actually, that's not at question...or it wasn't from the original post. The original post was simply telling what had happened, the decisions that the OP made and how the OP accepted responsibility for those decisions and what the OP would do differently next time. The OP does not blame the operator in her post and really only mentions a few things that the operator did to give a context to her story and her decision making process. The OP clearly takes responsibility for her decisions and doesn't try to make excuses.

Responders brought up all manner of other things.

Threads evolve and discussion is good, but to believe that these segues are actually to do with the OP isn't accurate and, in this instance, is harmful to furthering discussion on making mistakes, living to tell about them and helping others learn - which is, I believe, the point of the original post. Very few people are going to be willing to stand up and offer their stories if they are thinking that things will get hijacked with other people's personal agendas - no matter how important those agendas might be to overall improving diver safety and enjoyment.

 

[Web Monkey]

Talking about the people being out of shape or overweight, and bringing it up out of context, are two entirely different matters. In this case, I think it's just confusing the real issue ... which is that this diver talked herself into doing a dive she shouldn't have been doing.

That's my point. The boat captain should not have even offered the option of the deep dives, knowing that new divers are both unqualified and easily influenced.

Terry

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I see it as relevant too. When your anxiety goes up or you feel overwhelmed and stressed it comes into play in an important way, physiologically.(Vasoconstriction, increased peripheral vascular resistance, increased 02 demand, HR, increased BP, myocardial ischemia, little things we would rather not think about)

I disagree with you Alcina because what is at question is who needs to assess the diver and the dive "appropriateness" as Terry referred to it.

The operator asked me to explain his dilemma and I did the best I could.
One side of a story where everybody just agrees with everybody else is not so useful.

I agree, it is off topic if nobody cares about it.

No ... it's off-topic because it's not germane to what happened.

Physical fitness is a legitimate topic to discuss in scuba diving ... certainly. And if you want to discuss it, then start another thread ... I don't doubt you'll get plenty of people who care about it, and will voice an opinion.

But it is not what created the situation the OP described. The cause of this problem wasn't physical ... it was mental. It was an error in judgment ... on the part of more than one person. There's something very valuable to be learned from that ... if you'll allow that discussion to happen.

It's extremely important for a new diver to not allow themselves to get talked into agreeing to a dive they're not comfortable with. That's clearly what occurred ... whether it was the boat captain, the other divers, or simply (and most likely) just the new diver herself not wanting to ruin everybody else's good time.

It's a common problem ... and the cause of a lot of diving accidents. There can be something of value to come from this discussion ... if it's allowed to stay on topic.

Please ... discuss physical fitness all you like. But not in this thread ... it's doing nothing except distracting from a lesson that a lot of people could benefit from.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)