I hate conforming...

[leadweight]

Superhelix;

The Raider may weigh 10 lbs in air, but if it has the same density as water, it weighs 0 lbs in water. The typical BC (even when deflated) actually is less dense than water and has positive bouyancy anywhere from negligable to over 4 pounds. For a Ranger this is 2 to 3 lbs. I dont know what the bouyancy of the Raider is when it is empty.

Aluminum has a density of about 2.8 times water. An aluminum BP will weigh about 1 lb in water which takes 1 lb off your weight belt, plus any bouyancy lost by not using a bouyant (when deflated) BC. The remaining steel hardware might be worth a few more ounces of lead.

The Steel BP is 7.8 times as dense as water so it removes the need for another 3.5 lbs of lead over the aluminum BP.

The storage pack attaches to the backplate and lies between the BP and your back. Some people say that Improves comfort, I never used one.

The ACB+ system costs $162. In warm salt water a lean diver with an SS backplate might need between zero and 6# of lead. Is it really worth it? LIkewise, you probably need the trim pockets only with an Aluminum BP or a softpack as the weight of SS takes care of the trim problem.

Well, before you jump in the water you also need a mask, fins and some exposure protection. If you are planning to use a necklace for your spare regulator, a DIR hose kit $70 will come in handy as will a couple of SS bolt snaps to clip off your SPG at the waist and the long hose when not in use. A Halcyon knife and sheath will set you back $40. (I prefer shears or a tiny Z knife). Two backup lights and SS boltclips complete the look (and are absolutely necessary under a blazing sun in crystal clear water at 11 am according to the DIR guys). Get Pelican super sabers and strip off the spring clips. AT $22 each thery are a lot cheaper than the scout light. How about the latest HID/NiMH canister light?

And none of this BS will help you as much as a lot of time in the water with a bunch of unwashed and beat up rental equipment.

 

[superhelix]

leadweight once bubbled...

Two backup lights and SS boltclips complete the look (and are absolutely necessary under a blazing sun in crystal clear water at 11 am according to the DIR guys).

lol!!!

TX Leadweight for the very informative weighting info. I am silly I didn't figure that out before I posted...

DOES THIS MEAN I CAN ACTUALLY GET AWAY WITH NO WEIGHTING AT ALL ASSUMING I AM GOOD AT ACHIEVING NEUTRAL BOUYANCY?!??

Of course I already have my 3mm shorty, mask (TUSA Splendive IV) and fins (Mares Plani AvantiTre).

If you are planning to use a necklace for your spare regulator, a DIR hose kit $70 will come in handy as will a couple of SS bolt snaps to clip off your SPG at the waist and the long hose when not in use.

Does this mean I will need to go to the long hose format with this BP/W setup? I was hoping to avoid this...

And regarding the SS bolt snaps, what if I ditch the console and get a wrist computer and compass instead? Can I avoid getting the extra stuff?

 

[superhelix]

My first 25 dives were with a Seaquest Pro QD - type vest and about 14# of weight...

If we assume that the vest has +1# bouyancy then I need an average of 13# balast, right?

With the SS BP I get -4.5# bouyancy to start, so don't I still need 8.5# more weighting?

 

[Genesis]

You don't know if the original BC was positive (and you had to carry weight to overcome that)

It might have been - in fact, it probably was.

See my post on this - the NH is reasonably neutral, but weighs NINE POUNDS MORE (in fully-loaded, w/lead necessary for each config, out of the water) than the Halcyon SS BP+Wing.

You WILL notice the 9 lbs!

This is the real downfall of the "conventional" BC - with all the extras, even if the manufacturer took care to make sure it would be neutral, it will be far heavier, grossed-up, than the BP+Wing.

Mass is, all other things being equal (and they almost never are) bad, as it equals inertia and dead weight out of the water.

If mass comes with inherent positive buoyancy, then its REALLY bad, since you now need more lead which is yet MORE inertia AND more dead weight!

 

[seabass]

Superhelix, make sure you don't just go and buy everything from halcyon at list price. Do a little shopping or at least negotiation to get better prices. If you can get a used backplate, do that. It is a big chunk of metal that isn't going to wear out any time soon. Feel free to separate BP and wings from DIR and get the BP and wings without all the other stuff. I really like the BP and wings because of compactness for travel and ability to remove weight from the weightbelt. In freshwater I dive with no weight and in salt water I dive with about 4 pounds. As far as comfort goes, the BP and wings are slightly less comfortable out of the water. The straps do dig very slightly into my shoulders. I do not have any problems with the plate digging into my back. On the plus side the BP/wings are not nearly as cumbersome, the jack style BC makes me feel like a big waddling fat man. I really prefer the BP/wings in and out of the water for that reason. The transpac is a reasonable compromise to a BP and wings. My dive instructor traded in his BP many years ago and favors a transpac because he says it is more comfortable. I personally think the construction is vastly inferior to the BP and wings. The bp will never wear out, the harness will wear out after a while but will be easy to replace. The wings will probably take a very long time to wear out.

 

[Genesis]

but a BP+Wing works just fine with a conventional reg setup and octo.

The DIR people will scream and shout, but the rig will still dive just fine.

You need to be comfortable with your rig. If you don't want the long hose for some reason, then don't use it. I think it has some real advantages, but it is DIFFERENT, and if you dive from a charter boat you're likely to run into people who will give you grief about it. I did, and as a consequence when I did my AOW boat dives I did them with a "conventional" setup. From my own boat I don't have to listen to it, and I dive what I want to dive and what makes me comfortable.

Only you can judge whether its a good configuration for you.

Don't let the DIR "mindset" take over your thought process. Think through what your kit should and does include, and make the decisions that are right for you.

The BP+Wing is not for everyone. Some people find them very uncomfortable. Some people don't like the crotch strap, which is a near-requirement with these rigs. Some people don't like the way the harness fits. Some people's body doesn't work well with the plate, and it digs into them.

But this problem - poor fit - exists for virtually any BC. The difference is that with a BP you can adjust it to fit nearly anyone. You simply cannot do that with most BCs - which is why there are so many different sizes for most of them!

I really do not like being unable to see down my front. This is a real problem with most conventional BCs. Back-inflate BCs solve part of it, but not all of it.

I own a Nighthawk and do like it. It trims out well and dives really nice. Of the conventional BCs that I've seen, its my favorite - although its a back-inflate. I don't care for the "poodle jackets" at all - tried 'em, hated 'em.

But that's me. YMMV and all that...

 

[Tavi]

superhelix once bubbled...

Does this mean I will need to go to the long hose format with this BP/W setup? I was hoping to avoid this...

You don't need to go to the long hose. the long hose may be more streamlined though.

I just switched a hose so I now have a bungied back-up ('til now it was a standard length octo). My primary is on a standard length hose. When I continue my training and move to doubles I'll switch to a 7' hose.

Unless you're trying to be DIR your regs are fine in a standard configuration.

Pratice with whichever configuration you have, and make sure you're buddy knows the routine. (I get to practice with my wife and son now so they know how my new set up works, They get the one from my mouth).

 

[superhelix]

So, the reason I am going to buy the BP/W setup actually has NOTHING TO DO with DIR philosophy. I am happy to hear from some of you that it doesn't matter (although I anticipate a backlash to this post from others less sympathetic).

I am excited about the BP/W because of its apparent configuration simplicity, the ability to wear little to no extra weighting, its ease of travel, its longevity, and its adjustability, not because I am already a DIR convert.

It just seems like the most elegant solution to bouyancy control.

I will try and shop around for the best deal I can find on a Halcyon SS BP+harness, 27# wings, and Storage Pak. If anyone knows a European online dealer that they recommend, please let me know.

With my new Apeks ATX200 and ATX40 regs, (with standard length hoses), and a Halcyon regulator necklace, I am, correct me if I am wrong, DONE with bouyancy control and life support (thus, not including shorty, mask, fins, computer, compass, knife, surface marker, or lift device), assuming I don't need any more weighting.

That means however that I have no ditchable weights.

Shouldn't I opt for the Aluminum backplate instead along with a weight belt or the Halcyon ACB+? Will I then need to add non-releasable trim weighting, thereby hurting my aquadynamics?

 

[Uncle Pug]

My first response to your other thread still stands.

If you are going to DM and be working for someone else you need to take into consideration what equipment your employer wants you to use. If it is a dive shop then they will want you to use the equipment that they sell... for in reality you will also be a sales model.

I know you hate to conform... but in this case you must consider conformity As has been pointed out you could end up being the only diver using a BP in certain resort type settings....


But then perhaps you are individualistic enough to handle that kind of social pressure since you do hate to conform.

Well then... BP it is... yappers aside.

However it would be well worth your while to travel to a location where a DIR fundamentals is being taught so that you can be tutored in the uncommon art of perfect buoyance control, trim control, situational awareness and buddy skills.

This will give you an excellent basis for providing real value to the students and instructors you DM for in the future

 

[Genesis]

you will likely need more weight than the BP + STA alone.

If you are diving a bathing suit then you might even be negative with just the BP+Wing and a near-empty tank, in which case the aluminum plate makes more sense.

You want SOME ditchable weight, so that if you need to become positive on the surface and your BC is compromised for some reason you CAN without ditching the rig.

If you're diving an AL tank in salt water with a wetsuit, evne a very thin wetsuit, you should need at least some weight with a SS BP. But that amount will be modest (under 10 lbs), which means that a conventional belt is no big deal at all.