Scubaroo
Contributor
Had a quick search through the archives, superhelix, and found this gem piece of advice:
I hate conforming...
- Thread starter superhelix
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Zept
Contributor
Superhelix, there is a Halcyon dealer in Singapore (Web site at http://www.halcyonsingapore.com.sg/). The Halcyon Web site also lists three dealers in Thailand, one in Bangkok and two on the east coast.
You might want to come out and rent gear for a couple of weeks while you do the Rescue course, check out the local conditions and find out what your dive shop expects of you. I don't know what the prices are like in Thailand, but in Singapore they are very reasonable -- comparable to buying on-line.
Zept
You might want to come out and rent gear for a couple of weeks while you do the Rescue course, check out the local conditions and find out what your dive shop expects of you. I don't know what the prices are like in Thailand, but in Singapore they are very reasonable -- comparable to buying on-line.
Zept
divrnr
Guest
Actually I sawa Halcyon wing up close at the local LDS and tried it out in his pool, and a guy on the last dive boat trip had the ND X wing and it's actually very well made and fully repairable like my Ranger's bladder. No, not quite as well made but still high end construction.
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Yea, I knew when GP posted about using BP in rescue that this would become "one of those threads". I also knew that by agreeing I would agravate the situation.
Never the less, he is still right. Can you do rescue in DIR gear? Of course. Is it easier in a poodle jacket? Yep.
Unless you loosen the harness to the point where its no longer serving its purpose, its easier to get your "unconsious victim" out of a poodle jacket, much easier.
I taught scuba for 10 years, rescue was my specialty. Taught properly, its a bi**** of a course. Rescue students, and the instructor, should be totally exhausted at the end of each day of training. If not, you're candy-a$$ing the course.
Its easier to get someone out of a poodle than a properly rigged harness. Period.
As for 446's comments, no comment.
Tom
Never the less, he is still right. Can you do rescue in DIR gear? Of course. Is it easier in a poodle jacket? Yep.
Unless you loosen the harness to the point where its no longer serving its purpose, its easier to get your "unconsious victim" out of a poodle jacket, much easier.
I taught scuba for 10 years, rescue was my specialty. Taught properly, its a bi**** of a course. Rescue students, and the instructor, should be totally exhausted at the end of each day of training. If not, you're candy-a$$ing the course.
Its easier to get someone out of a poodle than a properly rigged harness. Period.
As for 446's comments, no comment.
Tom
Zept
Contributor
Of course, you could do the job properly and use your shears. After all, webbing is cheap
.Joking aside, I doubt that I could snip as quickly as I can unclip. I'm not sure the extra seconds would make much difference in a real rescue situation, but... speaking as someone who has just started the Rescue Diver course, I'd rather practise on someone who is wearing a BC, because that's what everyone I dive with dives in.
Zept
leadweight
Contributor
Superhelix;
A Backplate is anything but the ultimate in comfort. Some complain that the bottom of the plate digs into their lower back whle others get sore under the arms from the stiff straps. While it may be the ultimate way to backmount doubles, it mounts a single tank further away from your back than most BC's.
The advice you receive in this forum is from a few rather prolific posters who are adamant that a backplate is the solution for every diver, no matter what. I have no idea where these guys get the time to dive, eat, sleep, earn a buck or go to the head considering the effort they put in here. You will also notice that they rag the heck out of the few that do not agree with them.
I can't tell you how many internet forums get taken over by a group with a special interest opinion to the extent that ome might think that the whole world iddoing things that way.
Guess what? Top professional photographer Cathy Church recommends a jacket for photographers as it allows more precise positioning in a variety of angles. I have been with underwater camerman Pete Romano (The Abyss) on a shoot and he wears a SP Classic (and full foot snorkel fins) as he handles a 35mm notion picture camera in one of his custom housings. Althugh I like back bouyancy, many divers hate it.
Have you been out on a dive boat in warm water lately? How many backplates did you see? Over the US labor day weekend I rented a Halcyon SS Backplate and took it to Cozumel. Each morning I saw at least 200 recereational divers picked up at the dock of Plaza Los Glorias. I was the only one who had a BP. Most of the divemasters had never seen one and they were all confounded when they saw I had only a single 3 pound lead block on my belt for salt water.
Over at the caverns in Akumel things changed and all the guides had backplates, as they are required to dive doubles. However, among the tourists whith singles, I had the lone BP.
I urge you to try out a backplate before buying one. They are just so different from anything else. If you like it after a try, go for it. Learn to think for yourself. None of these guys are going to be diving in Asia with you when some new diver screws up. You also might be able to get something nice at a great price when you get to work.
This DIR business can be nuts at times. They all act like every diver is going to cave certify right away so they need cave appropriate gear from day one or they will wind up dead from watching pretty fish on a reef in tropical somewhere. Believe me, the reason why recreational divers have accidents has nothing to do with whether they dive backplates or jackets, or breathe through a 7 foot hose or use a standard regulator setup with the spare reg in some kind of a holder. Did their shoulder strap get unclipped (and that caused their head to fall off)? They have accidents because they don't stay with their buddy and then do something totally stupid like shoot to the surface or spit out their reg. You don't have to be DIR to know why we dive with a buddy. Get real everybody!
A Backplate is anything but the ultimate in comfort. Some complain that the bottom of the plate digs into their lower back whle others get sore under the arms from the stiff straps. While it may be the ultimate way to backmount doubles, it mounts a single tank further away from your back than most BC's.
The advice you receive in this forum is from a few rather prolific posters who are adamant that a backplate is the solution for every diver, no matter what. I have no idea where these guys get the time to dive, eat, sleep, earn a buck or go to the head considering the effort they put in here. You will also notice that they rag the heck out of the few that do not agree with them.
I can't tell you how many internet forums get taken over by a group with a special interest opinion to the extent that ome might think that the whole world iddoing things that way.
Guess what? Top professional photographer Cathy Church recommends a jacket for photographers as it allows more precise positioning in a variety of angles. I have been with underwater camerman Pete Romano (The Abyss) on a shoot and he wears a SP Classic (and full foot snorkel fins) as he handles a 35mm notion picture camera in one of his custom housings. Althugh I like back bouyancy, many divers hate it.
Have you been out on a dive boat in warm water lately? How many backplates did you see? Over the US labor day weekend I rented a Halcyon SS Backplate and took it to Cozumel. Each morning I saw at least 200 recereational divers picked up at the dock of Plaza Los Glorias. I was the only one who had a BP. Most of the divemasters had never seen one and they were all confounded when they saw I had only a single 3 pound lead block on my belt for salt water.
Over at the caverns in Akumel things changed and all the guides had backplates, as they are required to dive doubles. However, among the tourists whith singles, I had the lone BP.
I urge you to try out a backplate before buying one. They are just so different from anything else. If you like it after a try, go for it. Learn to think for yourself. None of these guys are going to be diving in Asia with you when some new diver screws up. You also might be able to get something nice at a great price when you get to work.
This DIR business can be nuts at times. They all act like every diver is going to cave certify right away so they need cave appropriate gear from day one or they will wind up dead from watching pretty fish on a reef in tropical somewhere. Believe me, the reason why recreational divers have accidents has nothing to do with whether they dive backplates or jackets, or breathe through a 7 foot hose or use a standard regulator setup with the spare reg in some kind of a holder. Did their shoulder strap get unclipped (and that caused their head to fall off)? They have accidents because they don't stay with their buddy and then do something totally stupid like shoot to the surface or spit out their reg. You don't have to be DIR to know why we dive with a buddy. Get real everybody!
OP
superhelix
Registered
Leadweight and others,
I appreciate your honest and well thought-out comments to my query. I don't think that we are going to be able to solve the question of Jacket / Back-Inflate / BP/W today, as I think we all agree there is no right answer, simply choices for different people to make in different situations. SeaJay started a great thread a while back on just this subject, and there was no resolution after 150 posts.
This decision may be getting harder, not easier to make after hearing from all you experienced divers...perhaps we could focus the discussion a little bit more...can you all help me clarify a few questions I have from reading over this thread so far?
1. Halcyon offers a stainless steel or aluminum backplate:
"The stainless backplate is .125 (+/- .005) Stainless #304, with a 2B finish, .500 Temper Hardness, weighing 5.14 lbs. plain, and 6.02 lbs. with straps. Aluminum backplate features a military spec hardcoating and weighs 1.75 lbs. plain."
Thus, the SS BP weighs 3 pounds more than the AL BP. However, people have mentioned that choosing the SS version frees up the need for carrying that extra 3 pounds of ballast. However, when I picked up the Raider jacket a few days ago, the thing weighed a TON. Why do I minimize my total weight requirement choosing a BP that only weighs 5 pounds? Wouldn't a vest style BC weigh more, thus requiring me to wear more weight with the BP/W setup to compensate? In other words, does choosing the SS option simply save me from carrying 3 pounds of weight I would need to carry if I bought an AL BP or does is actually help limit my need to carry weight vs. using a jacket-style BC? Also, is the Halcyon Active Control Balast + system the way to go for weighting? Or based on answers to the above question, will I need to drop the + and get the additional 10 lb capacity?
2. Let's assume it makes sense then for me to purchase a Halcyon SS BP w/ harness and I also purchase the Pioneer single tank 27 lb. wings setup. Extreme Exposure offers a "package deal" for these two items plus for $505 (which goes by the way to the fact that in fact the BP/W setup is NO cheaper than going top of the line vest-style BC, as Raider and Ranger both fall in the $500 area)...
"27 lbs. Pioneer MC System with stainless steel backplate:
Single tank wing, backplate with Secure Harness and Storage Pak, integrated single tank mounting system"
If I cough up 500 smackers for above setup, what is this Storage Pak (is it the side hip pocket depicted on the picture below)?
3. If I ordered the following gear setup, what would I still be missing (not including computers/guages)?
- Above described package including SS BP+harness, 27lb wings, and Storage Pak
- APEKS ATX200 and ATX40, standard length hoses
- Halcyon regulator necklace
- Halcyon Active Control Balast +
- Halcyon Trim Weight Pockets (2)
Please assume that I am going for the MINIMAL configuration, and that I am doing pure rec diving (and if this precludes me from needing/using this entire setup, feel free to let me have it).
4. What is a stainless steel STA?
Muchos gracias.
I appreciate your honest and well thought-out comments to my query. I don't think that we are going to be able to solve the question of Jacket / Back-Inflate / BP/W today, as I think we all agree there is no right answer, simply choices for different people to make in different situations. SeaJay started a great thread a while back on just this subject, and there was no resolution after 150 posts.
This decision may be getting harder, not easier to make after hearing from all you experienced divers...perhaps we could focus the discussion a little bit more...can you all help me clarify a few questions I have from reading over this thread so far?
1. Halcyon offers a stainless steel or aluminum backplate:
"The stainless backplate is .125 (+/- .005) Stainless #304, with a 2B finish, .500 Temper Hardness, weighing 5.14 lbs. plain, and 6.02 lbs. with straps. Aluminum backplate features a military spec hardcoating and weighs 1.75 lbs. plain."
Thus, the SS BP weighs 3 pounds more than the AL BP. However, people have mentioned that choosing the SS version frees up the need for carrying that extra 3 pounds of ballast. However, when I picked up the Raider jacket a few days ago, the thing weighed a TON. Why do I minimize my total weight requirement choosing a BP that only weighs 5 pounds? Wouldn't a vest style BC weigh more, thus requiring me to wear more weight with the BP/W setup to compensate? In other words, does choosing the SS option simply save me from carrying 3 pounds of weight I would need to carry if I bought an AL BP or does is actually help limit my need to carry weight vs. using a jacket-style BC? Also, is the Halcyon Active Control Balast + system the way to go for weighting? Or based on answers to the above question, will I need to drop the + and get the additional 10 lb capacity?
2. Let's assume it makes sense then for me to purchase a Halcyon SS BP w/ harness and I also purchase the Pioneer single tank 27 lb. wings setup. Extreme Exposure offers a "package deal" for these two items plus for $505 (which goes by the way to the fact that in fact the BP/W setup is NO cheaper than going top of the line vest-style BC, as Raider and Ranger both fall in the $500 area)...
"27 lbs. Pioneer MC System with stainless steel backplate:
Single tank wing, backplate with Secure Harness and Storage Pak, integrated single tank mounting system"
If I cough up 500 smackers for above setup, what is this Storage Pak (is it the side hip pocket depicted on the picture below)?
3. If I ordered the following gear setup, what would I still be missing (not including computers/guages)?
- Above described package including SS BP+harness, 27lb wings, and Storage Pak
- APEKS ATX200 and ATX40, standard length hoses
- Halcyon regulator necklace
- Halcyon Active Control Balast +
- Halcyon Trim Weight Pockets (2)
Please assume that I am going for the MINIMAL configuration, and that I am doing pure rec diving (and if this precludes me from needing/using this entire setup, feel free to let me have it).
4. What is a stainless steel STA?
Muchos gracias.
OP
superhelix
Registered
OP
superhelix
Registered
bengiddens stated on a post a while back:
"Just to expand on JamesK's statement about the new Halcyon Pioneer wings not needing an STA - if you decide not to use an STA with this wing, make sure your backplate has the compatible slots for the tank cam straps to pass through. Both FredT and Halcyon backplates have these. They are two pairs of vertical slots on the ridge of the backplate."
Thus, although I now know I don't need the STA with the Halcyon BP and harness, I still don't know what it is I don't need....i will keep looking though...
"Just to expand on JamesK's statement about the new Halcyon Pioneer wings not needing an STA - if you decide not to use an STA with this wing, make sure your backplate has the compatible slots for the tank cam straps to pass through. Both FredT and Halcyon backplates have these. They are two pairs of vertical slots on the ridge of the backplate."
Thus, although I now know I don't need the STA with the Halcyon BP and harness, I still don't know what it is I don't need....i will keep looking though...
OP
superhelix
Registered
Found it. So, I answered my own question four while you are all sleeping in the Western Hemisphere.
Large Diver has an absolutely awesome post currently on page 5 of the BC section - and he provides this link in his post that is perfect for 101 BP/W setup instructions called "A Beginner's Guide to Backplates".
Questions 1-3 still remain relevant though...any takers?
Large Diver has an absolutely awesome post currently on page 5 of the BC section - and he provides this link in his post that is perfect for 101 BP/W setup instructions called "A Beginner's Guide to Backplates".
Questions 1-3 still remain relevant though...any takers?
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