I Don't Understand Dive Shops

[Marie13]

This rant that local diving is lousy/cold/low visibility/only for freaks is strange. You can hear the same arguments all around the globe, only exception being a few popular tourist diving sites. Maybe it is the industry to blame after all. OW course materials have only pictures of divers in sunny tropical locations and many dive shops promote dive travel more than local diving. This seems stupid. Local diving is often pretty good. People who dive all year round locally tend to support local shops and buy more gear.

DRIS (my shop) not only very actively promotes the local Great Lakes diving (one of the things they do is put any diver that wants it in a dry suit for the quarry checkout dives), but they have a growing charter op that actually gets you in the lake.

When a warm water diver is in the shop, I always make a point of chatting about how great the Great Lakes diving is and show wreck pics on my phone. I hope I've put the bug in the brain of at least several people.

 

[EireDiver606]

This has turned into cold water vs warm water debate and it’s funny because some Irish people I’ve heard at my local snorkelling (while they were walking around) area brag about how they’ve only ever been in 30m visibility and 20+ degrees water. As if I feel jealous?? Those “vacation divers” are generally that “group” on the boat that can’t assemble their single tank kit together properly and look horrendous in the water, and here these people are telling how it’s below them to dive in 10 degree water with 1-5 metre visibility. Really??

I’m not sure if it’s just fragility or them just being ignorant, arrogant, or too “posh”? Could be wrong though.

 

[TMHeimer]

This has turned into cold water vs warm water debate and it’s funny because some Irish people I’ve heard at my local snorkelling (while they were walking around) area brag about how they’ve only ever been in 30m visibility and 20+ degrees water. As if I feel jealous?? Those “vacation divers” are generally that “group” on the boat that can’t assemble their single tank kit together properly and look horrendous in the water, and here these people are telling how it’s below them to dive in 10 degree water with 1-5 metre visibility. Really??

I’m not sure if it’s just fragility or them just being ignorant, arrogant, or too “posh”? Could be wrong though.

I was at a local "Pumpkin" dive years ago in Oct. and one guy who wasn't diving said that he'd never again dive in Nova Scotia's cold waters with all the thick wetsuits, weights, etc. when he could dive in the tropics. Don't think he was really bragging, but I saw the point. Besides the attractiveness of the tropics, it's a lot easier to just throw on a rash guard, etc. I haven't been in the tropics enough to see for myself the horror stories about inept vacation divers. But I enjoy reading about them. It must be nice to have the money to just dive tropically. Today's dive (wet as always) was in 45F water, only to get worse.

 

[pauldw]

When I teach the course, the only money PADI gets is the fee for the certification card. If the student doesn't want a certification card, PADI doesn't even know I taught it. If I were working for a typical dive shop and taught the class, PADI would get the fee for the certification card, the shop would get about 80-90% of the fee for signing you up, and the instructor might get, say $15. Maybe $10.

Is that true of all courses, not just the distinctive specialty courses? PADI, et al, only gets money from certification cards? How much do they get?

 

[admikar]

I guess it all depends on owner attitude. There is a dive school nearby, not a shop (if you don't count in renting equipment). Every single weekend they organize a dive trip, local lakes, sea, Y40 in Italy. Twice a week, there is diving at lake located within the city itself. I think they have over 100 members, most of them ex students (i'm not student of theirs).
And there is shop where I go from time to time. When I was searching for SW Perdix, I went in to buy some bolt snaps and asked about SW.
It literally went like this:
Me:"Can you source a Perdix for me?"
Owner: "We don't work with SW. Wait a second". Picks up the phone, calls the number: "Are you still interested in getting a SW?" Another call with same question.
"Your Perdix will be here in 10-15 days. We'll call when it arrives."
When I came back to pick it up, waiting for invoice, owner walks in: "Give this dude a 20% discount."
I'm not that regular of a customer and I never asked for it. That shop will get my business.
On the other hand, when I was starting my diving I called another shop to check something ( it was winter). Owner told me that he might not be bothered to come and open store for one diver, but to give him a call when I'm around, he might be in good mood.
Never called, never will.

 

[Zef]

You mention the cost of OW training. Have you priced a 1 hour golf or ski lesson? Golf instructions make 10x what scuba instructors make yet no one bats an eye at paying $100 an hour for their time. If anything, scuba instruction is grossly underpriced.

As PSIA certified ski instructor, mentioning the ski industry in comparison to dive training is interesting, there is a lot of similarity regarding instructors doing it because they are passionate not because they get paid a lot. But for skiing the cost of training is not a factor for entrance into the sport. First, there is no requirement for training to rent ski equipment or buying lift tickets. No ski shop will refuse to sell gear to someone who has no training or desire for any, and there are plenty of folks hitting the lifts and slopes with zero intent of taking a lesson. 2nd, ski instructors make very little money off the lessons they give, and since the hills are typically considered private property, doing freelance work would have to be discreet or you will get the boot (no pun intended), charge a lot or become too popular and you wind up losing more than you win. I have never seen a lake or quarry run by a specific club demand that training only be conducted by the instructors affiliated with them. Teaching skiing is a way to get out on the mountain more often in a cost effective manner. I feel for SCUBA instructors though as they incur more liability for a longer period of time for their clients than ski instructors do. Ski instruction does not typically end with someone being "certified", and the ability for one to scratch their way down a hill is not typically at the risk dying if things go toes up. The problem with dive instruction, despite instructors not getting paid very well, is that the they incur lots of liability with the overhead of needing a facility to train in as well as personal liability insurance. It would seem that many dive shops use instruction as a primary means to obtain new clients and sell gear, this is just not the case with ski instruction as it is really a secondary or tertiary revenue stream for a hill/resort.

With the exception of SSI, that I know of, one thing the SCUBA industry has going for it from a training/education standpoint, is that one can teach independently if one has a facility. As shops struggle to keep their doors open based on a failing business model, instructors are free to market their services to continue sharing their passion. With shops pushing students to buy gear up front when they engage in instruction, and a typical shop only offering and recommending certain brands, the savvy consumer will look online to have their needs met, or wait until they are on vacation to book a package of instruction, gear, experience and just sink the cost into what they expect to pay for their holiday.

The dive shop paradigm is more akin to a bicycle shop, where there needs to be some significant change to the distribution model and other paradigms of the industry in order for brick and mortar businesses to remain viable.

-Z

 

[Zef]

Today's dive (wet as always) was in 45F water, only to get worse.

This is my first season diving with a drysuit....as the water gets colder there are less and less people diving the local spots, and the folks that are out there are of a higher caliber of diver...so for me its not "only to get worse"...but instead "only to get better" as there are less people crawling along the bottom sending up clouds of silt and just in general crowding the site.

-Z

 

[Neilwood]

I guess it all depends on owner attitude. There is a dive school nearby, not a shop (if you don't count in renting equipment). Every single weekend they organize a dive trip, local lakes, sea, Y40 in Italy. Twice a week, there is diving at lake located within the city itself. I think they have over 100 members, most of them ex students (i'm not student of theirs).
And there is shop where I go from time to time. When I was searching for SW Perdix, I went in to buy some bolt snaps and asked about SW.
It literally went like this:
Me:"Can you source a Perdix for me?"
Owner: "We don't work with SW. Wait a second". Picks up the phone, calls the number: "Are you still interested in getting a SW?" Another call with same question.
"Your Perdix will be here in 10-15 days. We'll call when it arrives."
When I came back to pick it up, waiting for invoice, owner walks in: "Give this dude a 20% discount."
I'm not that regular of a customer and I never asked for it. That shop will get my business.
On the other hand, when I was starting my diving I called another shop to check something ( it was winter). Owner told me that he might not be bothered to come and open store for one diver, but to give him a call when I'm around, he might be in good mood.
Never called, never will.

I guarantee you will drive further to get to shop 1 than go to anything closer. The owner seems like he is pretty switched on (willing to go the extra mile to make a sale even if it is at a reduced profit or not a stock item) - that sort of attitude builds trust.

 

[tursiops]

Is that true of all courses, not just the distinctive specialty courses? PADI, et al, only gets money from certification cards? How much do they get?

About $25, depending on the shop/instructor's status.

 

[boulderjohn]

Is that true of all courses, not just the distinctive specialty courses? PADI, et al, only gets money from certification cards? How much do they get?

If the course has an official required text, they get money from that as well. Other than that, it is just $20+ dollars for the card (I don't recall the exact number off hand.)

To repeat--the price you pay for a course is determined by the local dive shop or local instructor, and that is where by far most of the money goes. Those are businesses, and getting paid for teaching those classes is how families put meals on their tables.