I am a little nervous

[kindaeasy]

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Buoyancy control was never much of a consideration. Basically, you have to remove the regulator from your mouth to vent the BCD and this MAY cause you to hold your breathe on ascent which is why you're venting in the first place. This one problem is probably sufficient reason to relegate the AIR II to warm water.
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That frees up the inflator for the job of venting the wing on ascent.
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Richard

The Scuba Pro AIR II was designed by Scuba Pro to be used with Scuba Pro BCs, all Scuba Pro BCs I've seen going back the early 90's have at least two dump valves separate from the inflator, usually one shoulder dump operated by a "remote" pull on the chest, and one rear lower dump. These are the primary means of venting air from the BC. It is virtually never necessary or efficient to vent air from the BC using the Air II. There is absolutely no reason to remove the AIR II from your mouth to vent the BC.

There are now a lot of other brand alternate inflator/air souces on the market, if you were to use one on a BC which does not have at least two other dump valves and the only way to vent air is from the inflator hose, by either pulling on it to open the valve or holding the hose up and pushing the deflate button, I would consider that unsafe. If there are other manufactures selling a setup such as this I would advise anyone to stay away from it. Likewise attaching a SP AIR II to a BC without the additional dump valves would be unsafe. IMO this is not a flaw in the design, it would be a flawed implementation, however that in no way makes the product unsafe, it's only unsafe if used in an unintended way.

 

[kindaeasy]

My opinion is to also ditch the air 2 AND the classic $99 octo and buy a real (secondary) regulator that was built to be used in a primary manner. Cheap octos and air 2's feel like breathing out of a snorkel or a toy compared to breathing out of a nicely built primary regulator. Poorly breathing toys don't inspire panicking divers to relax.

The SP Air II is nothing but a SP R190, when paired with good quality balance first stage it is more than adequate for diving within recreational limits. The AIR II hardly feels like breathing from snorkel or "toy" at depth. It will not breath as easily as a high performance 2nd stage like the G250, but it is hardly toy like. And lets be realistic recreational divers rarely spend as much money on their "octo" as they do on their primary. Other than tech divers I can only remember a very few who did in all they years I sold equipment. This is just not going to happen very often, so the fact is that the alternate inflator is going to remain a popular and economical choice. I would agree a poorly breathing toys would not "inspire panicking divers to relax" however the AIR II is not a toy, and I know for a fact with a good 1st stage will breath quite well to 170'.

The sentence in bold confused me, so maybe I am misunderstanding something here, are you saying a diver will panic when faced with an OOA diver needing air? You do realize that OOA diver would never be the one breathing off the AIR II, right? So, does that mean you assume all divers are going to panic, if put in a situation where they must donate air? If so then, IMO it wouldn't matter what they were breathing off both divers are now in danger. Not due to the equipment, but due to either a lack of training or self control. Actually, the first time a panicky OOA diver ripped the reg out of my mouth I found it a bit comforting that my "octo" was right there where I had already touched it a dozen time before during that dive.

Honestly, have you ever even tried one? How many dives, did you give it before you dismissed it as toy?

 

[kindaeasy]

OK, I am sure I am going to get flamed for this... I am a complete NOOB... but I don't understand why AIR2's are so horrible.

I have one, and the way I was trained to use it was simple. In an OOA situation, I give up my primary and use the AIR2 for myself. My buddy doesn't need to know how to use it, I am the one using it. I was trained how to control my buoyancy, and how to make controlled ascents while breathing off the AIR2.

In use, how different is it than putting a bungied octo in my mouth and passing my primary? The panicking OOA diver is sucking off of a S600... if that can't deliver enough air to him then... well... he's in real trouble.

My BC has 4 dumps on it, 3 of which are not the AIR2... I can reach them with either hand, so it really doesn't matter which hand I am using to hold on the the OOA diver...

What am I missing here?

It's not

It was designed to be used with a BC with other dumps (like yours), and those should be your primary mean of venting air from the BC.

You aren't missing a thing

 

[kindaeasy]

The best solution during the pre-dive is to make sure you don't have a buddy. That solves all these problems.

How I wish that were true, unfortunately, it is very possible that if you are diving off a boat with other people, you will be the one they go after when they go OOA. That said you can always use your camera to fend them off

 

[kindaeasy]

You are missing the fact that the OOA diver will likely be panicking and that could mean he is trying to kill you... LITERALLY...and IT IS YOU WHO IS IN TROUBLE.
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Ever dive with a crazed, over-sized, rabid octopus who has a machine gun and an atom bomb going off? That's what diving with a panicked diver is like.

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Now that I would agree with... a panicked diver will act as though they are trying to kill you and mostly likely they are. That was a pretty good description of a panicked diver. Rabid octopus

 

[kindaeasy]

MasterF, I really cannot understand anyone who has reasonable wits about himself would think the Air2 is a worthy piece of equipment. I base my opinion on personal use, and the actual stories of others who have issues with it.

A bungeed octo would pose absolutely no threat to you in any way as far as entanglement. Done properly the octo on a necklace would be on a 3/16 shock cord. You can ALWAYS either cut it off, or slip it over your head in the unlikely event it becomes "entangled" in something.

When the chips are down, the last thing you want to fool with is the gear you really need. It should be in it's place ready to work and work flawlessly without having to train your buddy in it's use. A bungeed octo is the most elegant solutions to the safe second, bar none.

Come dive with me and I will prove to you what I'm saying about the air2. You won't like it, but I can prove it to you in six minutes.

This got me thinking... can anyone provide a link to an incident where an AIR II failed or causes problems for a diver who was donating air? I do most of my reading in the accidents forum and don't ever recall an AIR II or similar being discussed.

I will agree a bungeed octo is a great solution and is not an entanglement hazard. I don't think I would say it is the "most elegant", it is a great solution but it is also not a common solution. At the present time, and in the real world (as apposed to the internet) only a small percentage of divers dive a bungeed backup. I think it is a long time coming before it is the norm. Remember many can't even keep their octo attached to their body.

I'm curious about that last statement? Can you describe how what you would show someone, that would change their mind about the AIR II

 

[kindaeasy]

But by no means do ALL BCs have multiple dump valves. In fact, there are new BCs on the market where the rear lower valve is optional at additional cost. And it's of dubious value on ascent.

My SeaQuest ADVi has only one valve - the one with the AIR II. It had the advantage of having a pull cable but even that won't work very well with the AIR II in your mouth. How in the world could you extend the hose enough to pull the cable while still holding the regulator in your mouth? I was willing to concede that it MIGHT be possible. Now I'm not so sure. Have you every actually done it? I haven't! Shame on me for not thinking this through and testing it. Maybe I'll jump in the pool this weekend and give it a try. Just for giggles...

I'd be willing to bet that nobody has ever tried to vent their BC with an AIR II in their mouth. Sure, I tried filling the BC, that's easy.

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Richard

There are BCs out their which do not have adequate dump valve to be used (IMO) with an alternate inflator. While I don't see the lack of a rear lower dump an issue directly related to the AIR II style inflators, I do see it as an issue in general regardless of how many 2nd stages you might be carrying. However not having a shoulder dump other than one attached to the same corrugated hose as the AIR II, is an issue, and could (is likely to) make using the AIR II in an OOA accent problematic to say the least. This is not what Scuba Pro originally designed, and the fact that other manufactures do not see this as an issue is highly alarming. BUT it is not a flaw of the design or concept, simply a poor implementation. I would thoroughly test your setup, in a controlled setting, to be sure it worked, before you continue to dive with it. Even if it passed the test, I personally would not continue to dive that setup, as it logically seems flawed, which is enough for me to change it. IMO you should never had to remove the octo from your mouth to control your and/or the OOA recipients buoyancy.

 

[kindaeasy]

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I am just assuming that an emergency can hit at any time... chances are I won't know there is an issue until the reg gets yanked out of my mouth...
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This may be the most accurate statement in this entire thread.

 

[kindaeasy]

I would change that to " one more piece of equipment that is easy to forget to service "

It depends on how you look at it. When I was working in a shop, I generally found most divers with an AIR II would bring their "reg" (1st stage, primary 2nd stage, and console) & BC w/ Air II in for service together. However, people with an octo almost never brought their BCs in with their "reg" for service. This means (to me at least) most BCs out there do not get serviced nearly as often as regulators do. When customers didn't bring their BC (& AIR II), I would remind them that they should bring that in as well, and we would service everything at once. The vast majority would bring in their BC and have everything serviced.

On the other hand most divers who didn't use an alternate inflator would never bring their BC in even when reminded. And I can't tell you how many times I would hear things like "it's not important, it's just the jacket" I even had several people tell me "it's not life support equipment like my reg".

In my experience most BCs without alternate inflators are serviced less frequently than BCs with one.

All that said I have an AIR II that hasn't been serviced in more than a couple of years and is just fine. Although I don't suggest anyone else do this.

 

[kindaeasy]

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It is highly unlikely (though possible, I guess) that we might run across a struggling OOA diver who was not part of our pre-dive briefing group. Should that happen, the result will probably be simple as well....the panicked diver will go for my buddy's second stage (if it hasn't been offered already), and my buddy will go to his Air2. In that way, the person familiar with the setup will be using it. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?
Just my worthless $.02.

In my experience, that is exactly how is it going to happen, well kind of exactly.

If it does ever happen , it can really only go one of two ways:

1. A nice calm person is going to tap you on the shoulder and give you a clear signal that they are OOA and want to share air. Then you are going to donate a reg to them. You both signal "ok? ok!" and accend. Not very likely.

2. A person you don't see coming (and you probably don't even know) is go try to kick your ass and take your air away from you because they don't have any and they want yours. At that point you are going to have to put something in your mouth to breathe from, then you are going to have to try to calm yourself, and them down. While you are assessing the situation, they are trying to yank you to the surface by the hose that attaches you to them (the one they are now breathing from).

Personally, I still prefer the "octo" that I am going to have to get in my mouth to be attached to my inflator hose, where I have been touching it and handling it on every dive I make with that BC. Also look around on your next dive trip, notice how many octos still are not secured to the diver. They are "floating" behind them, or dragging below them. If I were to go OOA, I would not want the added stress of having the donor searching for their octo if they donated their primary to me. At that point they very well may panic and once again I have someone trying to yank me around underwater.

If we take this one step further , there is two way to look at situation #2.

#2A Long hose (on your primary) - you can push them away which maybe great, less ass kicking going on from a distance, however are you giving them the advantage of being able to yank you up to the surface at a distance?

#2B Short(er) hose (on primary), you keep one hand on them, and use one to block the eight arms they seem to have, put your mask back on, and fight back to try to keep them from dragging you to the surface.

Personally, I like #1 the best but since that has yet to happen, I prefer #2B. I just don't like the idea of letting someone 5' to 7' away have me on a leash.

The diver you are most likely to have to donate air to, you will probably not know before hand. They may not know how your equipment is configured or how it works, but really they are not going to care. They want air, they want to get to the surface, they just want to live. They will not be operating your equipment, they will simply be trying to get the hell out of the water, the only probably there is that they are now ATTACHED to you.