hypothetical scenario 4 our Monday morning quarterbacks 20 miles out & boats gone

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fairybasslet:
What a great thread. I've learned so much. I always wondered whether or not it would be better to ditch tanks. I always dive with a big yellow sausage, a mirror, whistle and a dive alert but now I'm thinking of adding other things too, like a life raft. :rofl3: JK. Seriously, I never thought to carry water or flares or a streamer.

You might be onto something with the life raft, stage one 15 feet below the surface so if something is wrong when you get up, you have a life raft to inflate and stay in. Maybe put a GPS and some type of radio with the life raft! :D

Oriskany Divemaster:
Oh, and the sickest country in the world....

....Germany.

phew... had to think about that for a few seconds...
 
In our scenario, let's assume that we have been able to anchor ourselves either with our weights dropped as make shift anchors, we have been able to drop back down and tie off or something. We are tied together and we have our hoods and gloves on. We have cut out the ears of our hoods so we can hear better. Not only to hear each other, but to hear planes and boats better so we can signal. And let's assume that we in fact told someone on land and they are going to send help, but that won't be on the way for another 3 hours or so, since it is 4pm and they are not going to find you for several more hours after help starts to come. It is going to be a very long wait, let's say sometime very late in the day the next day or so. You are still in charge and the group is still following your direction as you give it.

In survival, your mind set and the mind of the group often has as much or more to do with if the group survives as what gear you have. So let's take a look at the disaster psychology of this situation. How do you keep everyone's mind right if you will given the things you are facing and experiencing? Here is a list of likely things you will have to deal with.

Panic
Loss of hope/negativity
Thirst
Sea Sickness
Maybe some choppy water and water in the eyes up the nose
Cold
Cramps
Anger
Tiredness
Fear
Possibly an injured diver during the wait
Crying
Sun burn pain or other pain
Divers suggesting doing irrational things

Your body can do more than you think it can, more than you feel it can. How will you use your mind and the limited resources you have to make it happen and keep some control of this bad situation?
 
Dang! your good :)

waiting to see how this goes .. dealing with this last part would be one of my weaknesses
 
Been involved in two situations somewhat similar to the one (s) described here.. One as the rescuer and and one with 4 divers, trapper 6 miles from shore, but with a current that made it far, far longer.

The first was the result of lighting hitting their boat... so there was not boat. The second a freak current.

There is a ton of detail missing, which effects making an effective plan. Tides, currents, winds, who knows where you are, boat traffic... is help near? Will they be looking for you?

But the plan is the trick.. when people are doing something, having an expectation is the key to not having human issues, that can, in themselves.

Note: In the second case, I removed my tank, and let the other three drift over 20 miles to a small island, while I swam, at night, to shore. Was only a 8 or 9 mile swim though.
 
Well, it would be impossible to give every detail in advance. You are never going to know all the details before disaster happens. You need a good working plan that you can adapt to the situation you find yourself in when disaster strikes. If you can't make a good working plan in advance without all the details, and therefore don't make a plan you will die unless you are very lucky.

As I see it you need two sets of working plans: 1 for staying put and how make staying put an option, 2 for being unable or unwilling to stay put (could be current to strong or you decide you are close enough to swim for it).
 
leah:
Well, it would be impossible to give every detail in advance. You are never going to know all the details before disaster happens. You need a good working plan that you can adapt to the situation you find yourself in when disaster strikes. If you can't make a good working plan in advance without all the details, and therefore don't make a plan you will die unless you are very lucky.

As I see it you need two sets of working plans: 1 for staying put and how make staying put an option, 2 for being unable or unwilling to stay put (could be current to strong or you decide you are close enough to swim for it).

Usually, if you did not consider or know, most of the major details before the event, getting out of it in one piece takes luck - don't like that concept.

After having been through the real thing..you tend to approach and act very differently than what most people do.

If you have never been alone in the ocean, with no shore in sight, in the middle of the night, it is very hard to explain it to someone.

Many of the standard approaches that people think are safe for diving, can become issues in an emergency, of the type you have proposed.

I mentioned, that in my case, I left three divers floating in a raft, while I swam for shore. We are all alive today because we took that course of action. Would bet that would be the correct answer in maybe one in 300 situations.
 
Puffer Fish:
Usually, if you did not consider or know, most of the major details before the event, getting out of it in one piece takes luck - don't like that concept.

After having been through the real thing..you tend to approach and act very differently than what most people do.

If you have never been alone in the ocean, with no shore in sight, in the middle of the night, it is very hard to explain it to someone.


Great for you that you survived! I am glad that you did and lived to tell about it. Not all who face disaster at sea live to tell about it. Most don't. I think you are very lucky to be alive since you left the group and went it all alone. You didn't know "ALL" things before this dive or you would not have gone on it. At least I don't think you would. You certainly did not know you would meet with disaster or you would have stayed home that day or gone diving somewhere else.

However, I fail to see how your answers could help someone who might face the same. Winds, currents and the weather can all change without notice. Even the best forecasts are wrong and freak things can and do happen. If you knew EVERYTHING before hand, the disaster would not happen since you would know all, and be able to avoid it. You best plan is to know all you can to stay out of trouble in the first place. If that fails and you find yourself in trouble then you need a good back up plan.
 
Frist let me say hi to you all, I'm Scott from Fairbanks

I was just OW certifed over Thanksgiving.
I am sitting here waiting for the water around here to be liquid again.
This has been a great thread. I would not have considerd some of the ideas that have been posted here.
I do take survival gear very seriosly, whenever I go out ( 4wheelin' snowmachine riding or hiking) I allways carry,water, knife,hatchet, 50'ft para cord, emergancy blanket, strobe light, 2 bic lighters, waterproof matches and magniezim fire starter (yes, I am anal about making fire). VHF radio and cell phone, a well stocked first aid kit, including 3 suture kits. and because there are crittiers that find people tastey 1 or 2 BFG's.

I am going to be diving the Alaska gulf coast alot this summer, and you all have given me alot to consider, so I will be starting to build my water kit ASAP before I need it!

Thanks again for the great thread.
Scott in AK
 
how did I miss this? (hi, Scott, welcome to our playpen)

I know the mental issues are huge, and it is so interesting. What puffer says about expectations....

I drifted once after getting lost (not an hour) with this war hero amputee big combat hero, and I never got nervous because of who he was. very strange to feel that much faith in another person, even though he really couldn't do anything about the situation.

I have started leaving a big intertube tied off on the site mooring recently...just cause it is so easy.

The guy who I was talking about also has his own boat, and he says that if it's your boat adrift, one diver removes tank and tries to catch the boat if it is close enough.

back to your question...hmm. I think I would tell the freaky person to shut up. Sometimes yelling at people gets them to snap out of it. (it works on me)

I can't think of one thing new. Pray?

I must say, I am very impressed with the Halcyon personal liferaft that stuffs behind your backplate. I think Jay might have it, somebody does.

I would keep my tank in case sharks attack to use as a shield. Sometimes they bump once and go away. I would not ditch anything without thinking it through. For example, if you drop the weight, keep the belt. You might need it for something.

Try and keep arms and legs next to your body for better heat conservation. Roll up, if possible, use the weight belt around my knees, for restful position. Talk constructively so your mind doesn't take over. (my hurdle)

If shore was more than six miles, or any current at all, I would not even try to swim.

If sharks circled, bumped, we would form a circle and try and present the tanks. Blast regulator air? keep knees tucked, try not to thrash.

Focus. Refuse to die by not entertaining the option.
 
leah:
Great for you that you survived! I am glad that you did and lived to tell about it. Not all who face disaster at sea live to tell about it. Most don't. I think you are very lucky to be alive since you left the group and went it all alone. You didn't know "ALL" things before this dive or you would not have gone on it. At least I don't think you would. You certainly did not know you would meet with disaster or you would have stayed home that day or gone diving somewhere else.

However, I fail to see how your answers could help someone who might face the same. Winds, currents and the weather can all change without notice. Even the best forecasts are wrong and freak things can and do happen. If you knew EVERYTHING before hand, the disaster would not happen since you would know all, and be able to avoid it. You best plan is to know all you can to stay out of trouble in the first place. If that fails and you find yourself in trouble then you need a good back up plan.
Indeed, you are quite right about not going, if one knows all of the details.

I guess I was not suggesting that one "know all", just know and plan for the general specifics of the area.

I know for a fact that the guys that were in the boat that got hit by lightning, knew we had to come back by that area.. and so they waited and spread out fairly far apart so they could get our attention when we came back. They spent around 8 hours in the water, but were fine. If they don't signal us, then it would have been really ugly, for them.

I would guess it is possible that a specific situation has 10 different choices that would all work equally well, just have not seen it in real life.

What I would suggest, is that the details of the situation dictate the correct action. As you have pointed out, one cannot plan on everything.

In my actual case, I was the only one capable of making the swim..and there would be no coast guard, no search that would have saved us. (I had just finished para-diver training (the army's equivalent of seal training) and knew I could swim 3 miles). Had that been today, I would never have attempted it.

And the 20+ miles to the island - well it was down current and the current was more than 2 knots. They just had to angle a bit to hit it (still a long swim, but not more than 1/2 mile). Had the current been the other direction, we would have eventually drifted into the entrance of the Panama Canal, with lots of ships.

In any situation, there is what you know and what you don't know. What you expect and what you did not expect. The more one knows, the better the chance is that one will select the right choice. One hopes that the choices don't come down to only being one right section, and not choosing it means dying.

If you are diving with people all dressed in black, and you don't have safety gear or lights, then one should not expect anyone to see them at night. That has to be part of the "information" one is using to make a decision.

I happen to agree with you regarding having a plan... but it cannot be a plan (as you so accurately pointed out) that assumes what the event is before hand. Boy, that is difficult to express. Let me try to say it a different way:

You can consider the possiblities, and have what you believe are the tools and knowledge needed for an emergency, but you cannot actually plan for it (I believe your comment about not going on the dive, if you knew it was going to go bad is correct).

So you are left, having to improvise what to do, with the specific details. Hopefully, you or someone else, brought stuff with you that happens to give you more options.

If you ever get into a situation, where you have to actually survive, the more options and the more time you have, the better off you are.

Hope I said that correctly.
 

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