You should be able to descend at the start of a dive with less weight than you need to maintain a safety stop at the end of a dive. Dry wet suit changes this somewhat, but your tank weighs less at the end of a dive than at the beginning.If I'm ever in your area I'll DM you!It is entirely possible that I don't need as much as I think I do. I know I am inexperienced and still getting the hang of things. But I also know that last week I had 14lbs in my pockets (they wanted me at 12) and an empty BCD (DM checked, haha), and I simply could not descend. Not "buoyancy issues once underwater" but "DM had to grab me by the fin and pull me under to give me more weight." I've never been told I need less weight after someone sees me dive or try to descend. It's always before.
Thanks for the advice on the wording, I will give that a try.
How to (politely) advocate for more weight?
- Thread starter columbus jones
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>Can trim impact your ability to descend?Is it possible that it wasn't really the "extra" weights she gave me that helped, but instead the fact that she put them in my trim pockets instead of my side pockets? I asked why she did that (I was legit curious) and she said it was because it was easier than pulling out my integrated side pouches to add weight. But your quote above has got me thinking! Can trim impact your ability to descend? I always thought it was more about keeping you level/horizontal, but I've been wrong about stuff before.
No. Your ability to descend is about the gravity pulling you down versus the water pushing you back up.
I think it's a bit strange to refuse a requested amount of weights upfront. That is what check dives are for. And personally I find it very convenient when divers can show in their logbook how much weight they used in specific circumstances.
But there is one thing that is important, and hasn't been mentioned yet:
The droppable weights versus the fixed weights. If you were to encounter some problem that would require you to drop weights, you want to drop only the amount of weight that will make you slightly positive. If you were to drop e.g. 18lbs at once, you would have a totally uncontrolled ascent to the surface.
If you can add weights to the tank strap (which you can't drop), add those first. The remaining weight goes on your weight belt or detachable pockets.
The other thing that @boulderjohn has already mentioned, is the type of BCD. Wing/backplates are still very uncommon in recreational diving, but the they are great to travel with, a steel backplate will replace some of the weights you need, and the system is way less buoyant than a BCD.
You can test it by emptying the BCD you use, put it in (salt) water and then start adding weights. You'll be surprised how much you have to add before the BCD sinks.
If you have the opportunity, dive with a backplate and wing and you'll see a big difference in weight requirements. Another advantage is that the webbing can be adjusted to any body size.
OP
columbus jones
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Perspective of an instructor who also works from time to time as a DM on charter boats:
As an instructor, I’d say:
—Being optimally weighted (neutral at the end of the dive) improves efficiency and control during the dive. If you are overweighted, you need extra air in your BC to stop your descent before you hit the bottom, and the tendency of that air to expand/compress in response to small variations in your depth will have overweighted divers relying on the inflate/purge buttons instead of controlling depth through breath control.
—Most divers who use more than expected amounts of weight could use less weight, often much less weight, if they did their weight checks while completely relaxed with slow breathing, no arm sculling, and no leg kicking. Most group OW classes do not take the time to get everyone relaxed enough to do an accurate check. (That’s one reason I focus on private/semi-private lessons and one reason the extra cost represents value to the customer.)
As a DM on a boat, my perspective is slightly different.
—I’m not going to conduct a buoyancy clinic in the context of an group excursion dive charter. If you present yourself as a certified diver with recent experience, I’m going to let you dive your dive unless you give me a reason to doubt you can do it safely.
—Although optimal weighting and lower air consumption rates are ideal, recreational diving is not a contest to see who can use the least lead or air. Carry the weight you need, use a tank with the air you need, and enjoy the dive. Eventually, the weight and air you need may decrease, either through practice or taking a PPB course, but don’t ruin today’s dive for yourself or your buddy by artificially accelerating the process.
—What you need theoretically and what you need today given your skill, experience and comfort with today’s conditions may be very different. Anxiety over more chop or less vis than you’re accustomed to may increase the amount of weight you need.
—I am much more concerned with the safety implications of uncontrolled ascents by underweighted divers than the negligible chance of a diver carrying too much weight to ascend. My biggest safety concern with a heavily weighted, high body fat customer is the climb out of the water.
—People are different, and I’ve been surprised in both directions by the amount of weight people need. My inclination is to give you what you ask for unless you ask for something crazy— and the warm water numbers you mentioned aren’t crazy.
As an instructor, I’d say:
—Being optimally weighted (neutral at the end of the dive) improves efficiency and control during the dive. If you are overweighted, you need extra air in your BC to stop your descent before you hit the bottom, and the tendency of that air to expand/compress in response to small variations in your depth will have overweighted divers relying on the inflate/purge buttons instead of controlling depth through breath control.
—Most divers who use more than expected amounts of weight could use less weight, often much less weight, if they did their weight checks while completely relaxed with slow breathing, no arm sculling, and no leg kicking. Most group OW classes do not take the time to get everyone relaxed enough to do an accurate check. (That’s one reason I focus on private/semi-private lessons and one reason the extra cost represents value to the customer.)
As a DM on a boat, my perspective is slightly different.
—I’m not going to conduct a buoyancy clinic in the context of an group excursion dive charter. If you present yourself as a certified diver with recent experience, I’m going to let you dive your dive unless you give me a reason to doubt you can do it safely.
—Although optimal weighting and lower air consumption rates are ideal, recreational diving is not a contest to see who can use the least lead or air. Carry the weight you need, use a tank with the air you need, and enjoy the dive. Eventually, the weight and air you need may decrease, either through practice or taking a PPB course, but don’t ruin today’s dive for yourself or your buddy by artificially accelerating the process.
—What you need theoretically and what you need today given your skill, experience and comfort with today’s conditions may be very different. Anxiety over more chop or less vis than you’re accustomed to may increase the amount of weight you need.
—I am much more concerned with the safety implications of uncontrolled ascents by underweighted divers than the negligible chance of a diver carrying too much weight to ascend. My biggest safety concern with a heavily weighted, high body fat customer is the climb out of the water.
—People are different, and I’ve been surprised in both directions by the amount of weight people need. My inclination is to give you what you ask for unless you ask for something crazy— and the warm water numbers you mentioned aren’t crazy.
Are you absolutely sure? This would be very unusual, especially in Hawaii. Which dive shop?
No.
I don't think you are saying what you meant to say. At the beginning of a dive, you will be heavy, because you are carrying about 5 lbs more than you need at the end of the dive, to compensate for losing 5 lbs of air weight from the tank at the end of the dive.
OP
columbus jones
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I guess I'm not! Was told this by my buddy's father (we were a trio only for this dive, and he is a lot more experienced than I so I took him at his word). Shop for this dive was Maui Dive Shop. If I'm wrong let me know and I'll make a note in my log. Also dove with Lahaina Divers a few times later in the week - those I was told were aluminum. They gave me 12lbs and I couldn't descend, ended up with 16 instead of 18lbs for those dives and it was fine except for the last dive when I ended up lower on air and couldn't stay neutral at depth.
The odds are probably 10:1 that you had an AL80.
Yes. The initial descent — first couple of metres/few feet is much harder if you’re horizontal as the gas in your drysuit and wing/BCD distributes anywhere but the dump valves.
It’s easier if you are vertical on the surface and dump with the elephant’s trunk as gravity does it’s thing and squeezes the gas out the dumps until you head is submerged, then turn horizontal as you continue the descent.
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