how to handle panicky divers in group

[Hawkwood]

pdhenry could be correct. There could be a mis-communication and someone is confusing Scuba Diver with Open Water Diver. It's better than assuming someone is purposely perpetuating "myths".

Thanks for pointing that out pdhenry.

 

[boulderjohn]

You were told wrong.

They lied.

I wonder why would they do that.

There is a whole lot of familiar misinformation being spewed out in this thread. Here's some more:

I see many people agreeing that the it's the instructor that counts and that instructors should be thorough, give a good course and make students work. I see divers saying that many courses are simplistic and not enough time is spend with exercises, that some exercises are done, like you said, once and that ticks the box, instead of proficiency having to be demonstrated consistently.
Yet, where do most divers end up being instructor for? PADI. The agency that brought down standards and has them fixed so that an instructor cannot require more from a student.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

pdhenry could be correct. There could be a mis-communication and someone is confusing Scuba Diver with Open Water Diver. It's better than assuming someone is purposely perpetuating "myths".

Thanks for pointing that out pdhenry.

I hope that's what was meant, but that's not what I heard. OW was mentioned in the sentence.

Speaking of which, I had no idea there was such a thing as "scuba diver". Last I knew it was just plain OW which was the basic starting course.
So now there's something below OW?
Is it one in the same as what was once commonly known as a "resort course"?
Is PADI the only one to have such a program, or are others doing it too?

 

[Frosty]

I was told (and I hope like hell it's not true) that PADI's training now for OW doesn't teach people to be independant divers that can plan and execute an independent dive on their own with a buddy. They train OW students so they can do a DM lead dive. My LDS told me that. I would like to know if this is a universal policy or if it's a regional policy, or if it's even true at all. I searched PADI's website but saw no information about any of this or what they are actually trained to do these days.

ACTUALLY-there IS a padi dive course that fits your description but it sure as heck isn't the open water course.
Either its a DSD dive which isn't a qualification of any sort. OR its a scuba diver course.
If you don't have time to complete the full Open Water Course, we can certify you up to Scuba Diver, which takes only 2 days. This course is a subset of the Open Water Course and qualifies you to dive with a Divemaster or Instructor to 12 meters. It can easily be up graded to an Open Water Course on your next dive trip.
Emphasis is that its not the full dive course and is only intended to be used so someone short on time can go that far then next chance they get. can complete the course

---------- Post added June 30th, 2014 at 05:50 PM ----------

a (OOA) panicky diver is the most dangerous thing you can encounter on a dive, much worse than a shark, electric eel etc.

when you look at couses like the padi OW, is there anything there that would weed out a diver who is likely to not follow emergency procedures & is likely to create a hazard for his instructor/fellow students during the 1st open water dives?

maybe there should be a test like that done for military helitcopter pilots where they dunk them inside a mock cockpit strapped in their flight chair in the dark?

My take on this is that if you are an experienced diver buddied with an inexperienced diver thats a hoover.You get a feeling on the boat what they are going to be like You then have a pretty darn good picture within 5 minutes of getting in the water.
IMO a decent human being is going to look out for that inexperienced diver to avoid OOA happening in the first place.
Its not being patronising for a second or about any dive agency. its just being a decent human being.

 

[levon11]

I'm looking for a good place to go to for my open water certification. I've never been scuba diving! Any recommendations? I live in Southern California (Los Angeles).. looking into Hollywood Divers

 

[Diver0001]

Hawkwood and Diver0001,

Thanks for clarifying that.
I'm going to have a word with the employee at the dive shop for spewing then since it is bunk. Maybe even let PADI know since it is coming from a PADI shop, What do you think? Worth my trouble?
It's been a long time since I've done any DM work or assisted with any classes so I'm out of the loop on current training.
It's good to know that it hasn't stooped to that level, that would really be depressing.
Well, at least I feel better now.

Well.... It's worth talking to them about, especially since it's a PADI shop (which was a surprise). PADI won't do anything about it because unless the person who said that is an instructor there is nothing here that constitutes a standards violation. PADI take a lot of criticism and they're not prone to acting on it, so at best I would address the shop management about the information employees are giving customers.

It's possible that the person who said it to you doesn't have a clear understanding of what is involved in the OW course. They could be responding from assumptions or from something out of their own experience, if they are even a diver at all. I will be the first to admit that while the standard is quite clear about the objective, not all instructors are equally competent and it's somewhat common for people to become certified without the confidence to plan and execute their own dives. This is a quality issue that is endemic to the industry as a whole, and not any agency in particular.

It's also possible that the person who said it is cynical. In that case calling them out on it probably won't get you anywhere but it might make you feel better for standing up and letting them know that you don't appreciate being giving false information.

Finally it's possible that the shop sells training from several agencies and the person was trying to steer you toward taking a course from a different agency or instructor. There might be good reasons to do that; for example, if they have an instructor who is exceedingly good but doesn't teach PADI. My way of saying it would to just be sincere but many people work in more mysterious ways. In that case, I would personally tend to bring it up and discuss it openly with them to try and understand their motivations for recommending for or against something in particular.

I'm curious what you decide to do with this and I would appreciate it if you could update us if you do talk to them.

R..

---------- Post added June 30th, 2014 at 01:18 PM ----------

So now there's something below OW?

What it is, is 1/2 of the OW course, more or less. For some people who just want to take a dive and look at pretty fishes, a DSD is enough. For other people they want to go a step further and either don't have the time or the inclination to go for the full monty but still want to go further than just a one time experience. To my way of thinking, the scuba-diver rating is really only useful to someone in a resort setting where they can dive with a guide on every dive.

Where I have also seen it used is as follows

1) for pumping up an instructor's certification count. During an OW course you can certify them for scuba diver AND for open water diver and get two certs for every student. Many shops/instructors do this as a matter of course to make their instructors look more experienced than they are. I don't think this was an intended effect but it's the most visible effect.

2) for giving a student who is unable to complete the course, for what ever reason, *something* for the work that they put into doing part of the course. If for some reason a student throws in the towel without finishing the OW course it may be possible to reward them for what they have achieved. This also gives a shop a negotiating position to avoid having to refund part of a course to a student who didn't finish it, so there is a business reason there too.

As a cert, however, it has limited utility.

R..

 

[wspalding]

Well.... It's worth talking to them about, especially since it's a PADI shop (which was a surprise). PADI won't do anything about it because unless the person who said that is an instructor there is nothing here that constitutes a standards violation. PADI take a lot of criticism and they're not prone to acting on it, so at best I would address the shop management about the information employees are giving customers.

It's possible that the person who said it to you doesn't have a clear understanding of what is involved in the OW course. They could be responding from assumptions or from something out of their own experience, if they are even a diver at all. I will be the first to admit that while the standard is quite clear about the objective, not all instructors are equally competent and it's somewhat common for people to become certified without the confidence to plan and execute their own dives. This is a quality issue that is endemic to the industry as a whole, and not any agency in particular.

It's also possible that the person who said it is cynical. In that case calling them out on it probably won't get you anywhere but it might make you feel better for standing up and letting them know that you don't appreciate being giving false information.

Finally it's possible that the shop sells training from several agencies and the person was trying to steer you toward taking a course from a different agency or instructor. There might be good reasons to do that; for example, if they have an instructor who is exceedingly good but doesn't teach PADI. My way of saying it would to just be sincere but many people work in more mysterious ways. In that case, I would personally tend to bring it up and discuss it openly with them to try and understand their motivations for recommending for or against something in particular.

I'm curious what you decide to do with this and I would appreciate it if you could update us if you do talk to them.

R..

---------- Post added June 30th, 2014 at 01:18 PM ----------



What it is, is 1/2 of the OW course, more or less. For some people who just want to take a dive and look at pretty fishes, a DSD is enough. For other people they want to go a step further and either don't have the time or the inclination to go for the full monty but still want to go further than just a one time experience. To my way of thinking, the scuba-diver rating is really only useful to someone in a resort setting where they can dive with a guide on every dive.

Where I have also seen it used is as follows

1) for pumping up an instructor's certification count. During an OW course you can certify them for scuba diver AND for open water diver and get two certs for every student. Many shops/instructors do this as a matter of course to make their instructors look more experienced than they are. I don't think this was an intended effect but it's the most visible effect.

2) for giving a student who is unable to complete the course, for what ever reason, *something* for the work that they put into doing part of the course. If for some reason a student throws in the towel without finishing the OW course it may be possible to reward them for what they have achieved. This also gives a shop a negotiating position to avoid having to refund part of a course to a student who didn't finish it, so there is a business reason there too.

As a cert, however, it has limited utility.

R..

My son got a scuba diver cert. He completed all the OW coursework and the first 2 OW dives where he demonstrated skills such as clearing his mask, CESA, sharing air etc. We were in Palm Beach to do his OW cert but only had a couple days in which to complete the 4 dives, and unfortunately the weather blew us out for 1 of the 2 days we had available to dive. We are headed to Palm Beach in a couple weeks so that he can do his 2 boat dives and finish the OW cert. I'd think that the scuba diver cert should be pretty much restricted to situations like my son experienced where you can't get all 4 dives completed.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have been involved in giving out two scuba diving certifications. One was to a student who was unable to complete the 4th dive and would not have an opportunity to do it again for at least 6 months. IN the second case the student's autism was severe enough that although he was able to dive well enough after a long private class, we did not think he should ever dive without a professional.

The scuba diving certification is not new. I don't know when it was created, but it has been around since before I started diving.

 

[Frosty]

hey boulderjohn-My 10 year old has done a few DSD dives. Now he wants to get qualified but basicly because I don't trust his maturity level enough I don't want to. Does such a qual exist as Junior scuba diver?

incidently one of the group travelling to vanuatu with us IS doing the scuba diver qualification. They have apsolutely NO interest in diving unless with a divemaster or instructor-ever.

 

[boulderjohn]

hey boulderjohn-My 10 year old has done a few DSD dives. Now he wants to get qualified but basicly because I don't trust his maturity level enough I don't want to. Does such a qual exist as Junior scuba diver?

A junior scuba diver must dive with an adult. That shouldn't be much of a problem--I assume he would want to dive with you anyway. I strongly suggest that you get him the most complete instruction possible and then exercise your parental controls at your own discretion.

About a year and a half ago I certified my grandson at age 10, along with his mother. When they later went diving on their own, they not only dived together, she made sure they had a DM with them. His mother felt confident in her own diving, but she still felt she wanted that professional around for her son. I suspect it will stay that way for a while. That is, of course, her decision to make and not his.

Consequently, I would say that as long as you are calling the shots, it doesn't matter whether or not the certification says he must dive with a professional.