how to dive with non-DIR divers?

[edparris]

I would have to believe that whomever did your training went well beyond what most people get for OW training ...

Yep I really do owe my OW instructor a great deal (Thank you Dick Shelly; and thanks for the compliment NWGD). I also did not intend to be preachy or arrogant with the above posts (especially because I still am a new diver). I'm just stating the fact that the training I got as part of my OW course, which included calculation and application of SAC, is essential to my enjoyment and safety of diving. I wish all other students the same...

 

[SparticleBrane]

We calculated SAC as part of my OW class, in the pool. Makes me sad that most OW classes don't have any mention of it.

 

[LG Diver]

I'm shocked that OW trained divers don't know their SAC/RMV and think that any instructor of a rescue diver that finds this deficiency in a student should correct it immediately. Do not pass go; do not collect any more c-cards....

I wouldn't count on it, based on the feedback I received in this thread...

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=149976

 

[Carribeandiver]

not to change the subject and highjack my own thread; especially since we are all getting along so well, BUT, I got my 5thd-x essentials of recreational diving DVD today and WOW! I saw about the same thing in DIR-F but being able to watch it again and again is something special.
Sure gives you something to shoot for, I can tell you that.
Ok, sorry for the highjack, y'all can go back to your discussion on how DIRers are arrogant and refuse to dive with the DIWers and of course DIRers arbitrarily decide who is DIW so dont argue with us cause, we are, afterall, arrogant. (in case you missed it, this paragraph was all tongue and cheek)

 

[Charlie99]

I wouldn't count on it, based on the feedback I received in this thread...

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=149976

Ahhh. Interesting thread. Perhaps you can fill us in on your experiences of diving with non-DIR divers. Specifically, what do you do when you have buddies that don't agree to your gas plan RB numbers ....

Depth => RB

50 - 1016 PSI
60 - 1099
70 - 1189
80 - 1452
90 - 1568
100 - 1690
110 - 1819
120 - 1955
130 - 2098

Do you compromise your standards when other divers want to use rock bottoms that are say, only 2/3rd of your numbers? Do you thumb the dive before it starts? Or have you always had buddies that agree to those numbers?


Unless you have all DIR buddies, you have probably faced the dilemma that Carribbean Diver posed when starting this thread.

Charlie Allen

 

[Matthew]

And let us welcome another troll to the DIR forum. Very well-substantiated argument. I now CLEARLY understand why CD should be ridiculed. Thank you. Come back again. And often.

I did not say CD should be ridiculed, but it's easy to see why he was.

You dont need a lot of analysis to see why his non-DIR buddies are not receptive to CD's ideas, the reason is very clear if you read his original post carefully and objectively. Attitude/mindset has a lot to do with it, like what you exhibit in your post.

I'm a non-DIR diver who is very receptive to DIR principles, that's why I lurk here often. But if you come to my rescue class and preach, obviously out of ignorance of the use of your newly acquired knowledge, that we should all dive thirds and stay horizontal throughout the class, and if you tell the instructor to adopt YOUR own, better safety procedures, I will not just ridicule you, I will kick you out of the class even if I'm not the instructor.

Now, if you can tell me how to effectively plan a rescue training dive using the rule of thirds, or how to bring up an unconscious diver while staying horizontal I'll be very receptive.

 

[jeckyll]

I'm going to post my responses inline. I'm NOT a DIR diver. But I've gone diving with DIR divers and am trying to do so more regularly. I'm also taking fundies in a couple of weeks (so you know where I'm coming from).

I am certainly not a qualified DIR diver but I am working toward that end. I took GUE DIR F two weekends ago and discovered I am approximately 17 lightyears away in skill but I am practicing and trying to 'do it right'.
I discovered GUE, got my gear and enrolled/took the course all within a 7 day period. Before that, I had already enrolled and paid for a NAUI Rescue course that started last night (Mar 5).

Take rescue for rescues sake. Forget about some of the stuff that will drive you nuts.
I asked about gas comsumption in my rescue class and was told it wasn't important. During the first pool session the instructor insisted we do air shares on our knees. I hovered to do mine (I told him I didn't spend time on my knees on the bottom diving, I wouldn't be doing air shares in an emergency that way either. He told me he was concerned about the 'current in the pool'. :11: )

Still, I managed to get alot out of the class.

Last night in class, I saw what my GUE instructor was talking about, those people do things unsafe and they dont even know it. One of the discussions was getting back on the boat with the famous 700 psi rule. I asked, well what is your sac rate? What is your buddy's sac rate? Using the rule of thirds is a good plan because it allows enough gas for you and your buddy to safely return.

Yup. Sounds familiar. Don't fight it, IMO. Make your point that it's important, then move onto learning the skills that may one day benefit your team mate.

I got scoffed at, ridiculed, called the master of overkill. These people not only didnt know what their sac was, they didnt even know what the term was. The course instructor talked about mistakes and how, because he is busy worrying about students, he has jumped in without his fins on, once without his weightbelt on, once without turning on his gas...blah, blah. I said, why not do a complete equipment check with your buddy before jumping in? That idea didnt go too well and was thought to be silly. Once again, I got called master of overkill.

People don't like being called wrong. If you don't think you can learn from the person, get out of the course and find someone that is more inline with your desires IMO. As I mentioned, I ran into some things in my rescue course that were very annoying. Sad but true.

Anyway, the point of my story is, I find myself adopting all those great safety rules, trying to apply DIR techniques and philisophies and yet I am so incompetent that I can barely spell DIR let alone do it. Just the same, I know I aint going back to my "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant style of diving". And now, I am going diving with these people in the pool twice and in the Gulf of Mexico for 3 days (6 dives) and I can already see problems. I am going to try and be horizontal all the time and they are going to be vertical. Ascent drills are going to be interesting with that pose. Now, I can see why DIR divers prefer not to dive with non-DIR divers.
I could go on but you all know what I am talking about.
So, how do DIR divers handle diving with non-DIR divers? What do you do when non-DIR divers do things differently?

I think that you need to figure out if you can take away essential rescue skills from this course. If not, get out. If so, can you live with the fact that they dive different? You don't have to dive with those people after the course.

I dive with a large range of divers. Tonight I was out with a DIR-F grad (100 -200 dives). My buddy (she's a PADI master instructor with well over 2000 dives and manges a dive shop) and another diver who used to instruct. We had a wide range of gear from DIR compliant to snorkels. I had an easier time diving with the fundie grad the night before, just because I've been adopting the same 'style' of diving.

I expected my buddies light to be where my light was. It wasn't. But then I adjusted a bit, remembered how she dives and we really had fun. I don't think anything was unsafe about it.

There are plenty of non-DIR trained safe divers out there. If you find them, dive with them. If you think that you need to babysit who you are diving with, then don't. Unless you are _really_ comfortable doing that.

My final bit of advice: make a list of the things that you are not willing to budge on. Ensure your buddies are on board with that part of it. If you can find DIR folks to dive with then do that. Just don't give up on good, experience, safe divers, because they are not DIR if it means you won't get out to dive.

Just my 2 psi...

Bjorn

 

[dsteding]

Nice post Bjorn.

 

[LG Diver]

Ahhh. Interesting thread. Perhaps you can fill us in on your experiences of diving with non-DIR divers. Specifically, what do you do when you have buddies that don't agree to your gas plan RB numbers ....



Do you compromise your standards when other divers want to use rock bottoms that are say, only 2/3rd of your numbers? Do you thumb the dive before it starts? Or have you always had buddies that agree to those numbers?


Unless you have all DIR buddies, you have probably faced the dilemma that Carribbean Diver posed when starting this thread.

Charlie Allen

Hi Charlie,

Like others that have posted here, I'm not yet DIR (I plan to take Fundies in the near future) but through the course of my research into DIR I've begun to question the practices that I have been taught thus far. I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to learn as much as possible, and I just started diving with DIR divers last weekend. The thread I referenced above was one example of an area where I feel that PADI's training is deficient. I don't necessarily think that the specific numbers quoted in that thread are the correct numbers to be using (a lot depends on what SAC rate and reserve amount is used in the calculation- and those numbers were very conservative). What concerned me (and continues to concern me) is when someone isn't familiar at all with the concept of RB, or how to calculate it, and doesn't use that in their dive planning at all. I don't dive with a large number of divers, so I've been fortunate that the folks that I have explained RB to have received it well and have been very willing to adopt it. To answer your question, if I found myself with a new insta-buddy that wasn't receptive to the idea of RB or willing to accept a gas plan that I was comfortable with I would not do that dive. My wife and kids need a husband and dad, and no dive is worth risking that in my mind. Now, if I'm diving with an experienced DIR diver that proposes RB numbers lower than mine, I'll be a lot less likely to assert that my figures are the correct ones.

 

[rjack321]

Every other week I dive in the Seattle Aquarium with an AGA mask, surface supplied air, a comm line, a watch but no depth gauge, sometimes a non-DIR buddy, sometimes solo, and probably a bunch of other strokey things.

However, to my knowledge no ones every hurt themselves in the 20ft deep tank and its generally fun.

So my recommendation is, if the non-DIR things are so nerve wracking that you're not having fun, skip the dive.

Otherwise just try to set a good example and share information about DIR (and vice versa) with your buddies.