How those idiots (us) run out of air

[flots am]

On the contrary, in my OW class I felt an implicit message that I should obey the person leading the dive, and if he asks me to signal when I reach half a tank, then he is taking responsibility for managing the group and getting everyone up safely. Dive agencies like PADI should really be more explicit about this aspect of diving--that you have every right to ignore the divemaster

This exact topic comes up quite frequently.

Unfortunately, it is in the certification agency's (the largest agencies, anyway) best interest to make divers feel like they need a DM to lead the dive because it builds business for their customers (the dive shops/operators).

It is in the DM's best interest to perpetuate this myth because more DM lead dives = more money.

They both have a financial interest in not telling you that you're on your own. Once you figure this out, you don't need them anymore, and the money from "guided" dives dries up.

However at the end of the day, you will not find any words on paper, signed by either the certification agency or the dive op or the DM that says that they're responsible for you, so if you run out of air and die because the DM wanted to show you his pet eel, your survivors will have nothing more concrete than a lot of unspoken, unwritten perceptions.

flots

 

[maniago]

Good discussion but you'all might want to note that the OP is nordo. He posted and bolted. Not sure he's benefiting from any of the expected slapping, but hopefully someone else who might have made the same mistake, won't.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Good discussion but you'all might want to note that the OP is nordo. He posted and bolted. Not sure he's benefiting from any of the expected slapping, but hopefully someone else who might have made the same mistake, won't.

To clarify, I absolutely did not mean to criticize the OP. I viewed his post as being brave enough to admit he fell into a trap he thought he knew better than to fall into. I see it more generally as a lesson to those of us who know what the right thing to do is under the circumstances and are sure we would do it. Many of us know what is the right thing to do, but when push comes to shove we may not do it. That's the lesson I see here. I like to think I would turn my dive when I, in my independent judgment, believe it is time to turn my dive, but am I 100% certain I would not hold out for a few more minutes if the DM continued on? I'd like to think so, but I can't say for sure. But I will keep this thread in mind thanks to billt4sf's candor.

 

[maniago]

[*]We would NEVER consider pulling down an anchor line to reach the bottom.... I see this as a sloppy dive operation that expects this course of action, and one I would do MY way, and it would work out much better my way.
[/LIST]

Nonono. Don't spout Florida rules like they are the last word in diving. Let me emphasis, this is SOP for Atlantic diving where viz and current are always changing. We can have three or 4 different currents and viz at various depths during the same dive and the anchorline is your lifeline. We use the granny line/dragline system and it is a very safe system. No free drops and no free ascents. If you don't follow the rules, you're either dead because you've been swept away or put everyone else in jeopardy because the boat has to go save your A$$. Bet you never thought of carrying a Nautilus radio where you dive, but we do. Its a religion.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I wrote this a few years ago and it has been a sticky in the new divers forum for a long time.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html

The inspiration for it was a death in Grand Cayman caused by a number of factors. Piss poor training started it. Ie.. "you'll be diving with a DM so do what they say and you'll be fine".

HORSE CRAP!

What it translates to is "we are allowed to give you an abbreviated course to maximize our profits, save time, and teach you barely enough to survive under water while lightening your wallet so we will!"

We will show you how to be a good little sheep. You'll have to find out on your own how to be a diver.

What it ended up being was allowing the DM/Guide/Instructor to plan the dive and a man died as a result. Screw the DM. When it's time to go you go. It is not their job to keep you safe unless you specifically hire them for you and your buddy for that purpose. And if you need to do that you have no business on that dive in the first place. They are not immortal super heroes. They can die to from a heart attack, stroke, head bitten off by a great white. Then what will you do?

Follow them if you want to. Want to is way different than have to. But have your own dive plan that if they do something that makes you uncomfortable you say screw you and follow your plan. Back on the boat you can hash it out. At least you'll be alive to do that.

If your training is telling you to follow the DM and you'll be safe then whoever is providing that training is likely to get you killed. Make sure your heirs know who trained you and who allowed them to do it that way.

Will make it easier for the lawyer they will almost surely hire to sue those that were responsible.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

Everyone needs to monitor their air supply often and accurately, and be responsible about turning and terminating a dive in accordance with their air supply. If you cannot signal the dive leader, then don't try- just dive responsibly. Signaling gas supply accurately is also important. It is your air that governs your dive, no one else's. This common mistake of not acting they way one is taught is too often reported. Let's be safe divers, people. That means diving with a reasonable supply of breathing gas at all stages of a dive.
DivemasterDennis

 

[billt4sf]

Hey I'm still here posting and reading.

Spending lots of time diving rather than posting. Thanks for the comments, some are appropriate, some not.

There is no way that I would bolt from a DM in an unfamiliar environment with currents and no line to go up. We are not skilled at open water ascents, and she (they) have more air! We were at 60 feet. But we should have used the signalling devices *that we had*. So there's our third mistake. I was anxious and not thinking 100% Also should have been more assertive to signal to turn the dive. But not bolt on our own. Egad, what a thought!

BTW I totally agree that the agencies DO NOT teach good buddy diving and I fault them for that. They talk about it but do not teach it. That is why I like ScubaBoard. I learned from SB to stay with my buddy at all times. Period.

Thanks again.

Bill

 

[uncfnp]

Hey I'm still here posting and reading.

Spending lots of time diving rather than posting. Thanks for the comments, some are appropriate, some not.

There is no way that I would bolt from a DM in an unfamiliar environment with currents and no line to go up. We are not skilled at open water ascents, and she (they) have more air! We were at 60 feet. But we should have used the signalling devices *that we had*. So there's our third mistake. I was anxious and not thinking 100% Also should have been more assertive to signal to turn the dive. But not bolt on our own. Egad, what a thought!

BTW I totally agree that the agencies DO NOT teach good buddy diving and I fault them for that. They talk about it but do not teach it. That is why I like ScubaBoard. I learned from SB to stay with my buddy at all times. Period.

Thanks again.

Bill

Oh, wow. This could get interesting...

 

[PsyWulf]

Me and the missus had a teaching incident like a while ago. Doing a boat dive and dropping down to the bottom in heavy surge. The dm decides to swim against the prevailent surge to get back onto the reef. With 10 of us scattered all over the place and me and fiance chugging through 300bars of air at an inordinate rate I signalled to her to stop fighting,we are surfacing. Inflated my smb and up we went. During our safetystop the dm finally turns around and notices us going up and signals us to come to him. I signal for surge and we're heading to the boat. 12minutes underwater at 12m and the struggling left us with 100bar.

Fiance was a bit worried but she knows now not to be afraid to go with her gut. I think the agencies don't pay enough attention to teach self reliance and self sufficiency,so you get a bit of a sheep mentality going

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk HD

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Hey I'm still here posting and reading.

Spending lots of time diving rather than posting. Thanks for the comments, some are appropriate, some not.

There is no way that I would bolt from a DM in an unfamiliar environment with currents and no line to go up. We are not skilled at open water ascents, and she (they) have more air! We were at 60 feet. But we should have used the signalling devices *that we had*. So there's our third mistake. I was anxious and not thinking 100% Also should have been more assertive to signal to turn the dive. But not bolt on our own. Egad, what a thought!

BTW I totally agree that the agencies DO NOT teach good buddy diving and I fault them for that. They talk about it but do not teach it. That is why I like ScubaBoard. I learned from SB to stay with my buddy at all times. Period.

Thanks again.

Bill

You seriously need to be able to ascend without a guideline.

Didn't we have a similar post where you were asking about drift diving and I recommended that you learn to ascend WITHOUT an ascent line??? Maybe my recollection is wrong?

You need to be able to ascend directly , in case something absolutely unimaginable happens like... getting low on air...or forgetting where the ascent line is, or the ascent line (anchor) moves, or the current changes and you can't swim there, or you have a real scuba gear failure, or your buddy has a medical emergency or your buddy has a scuba failure etc.. you NEED to be able to ascend directly to the surface without being scared of it and increasing the risk of the dive.

It sounds harsh, but the apparent deficiency in your skills, caused you to make the wrong decision for your wife and you both..Nobody is telling you to bolt, but the both of you somehow running out of air on the same dive, is a failure.