How those idiots (us) run out of air

[danvolker]

If you think you can drop straight down in a 3kt current when the boat isn't sitting over the wreck and find anything but sand.........go for it. Ill drop fast on the anchor line and spare my backgas for diving on/in the wreck vice attempting to fight that same current for 200ft trying to get to the wreck in the first place.

I have been doing this for decades....even the 280 foot deep stuff....but the boat would drop up current --we would drop fast, and end up on or very close to the wreck. If we could do this in full gulf stream intrusion off Palm Beach or Lauderdale, I don't see what the big deal is going to be in these other areas...whatever difference there is, I think is more the skill of the boat captain in figuring the distance up current to drop a buddy pair....the captain does need to know about how fast the buddy pair descends....

In 80 to 100 feet of water it is so easy.....while the anchor line version of the same wreck can be a miserable waste of energy.

 

[tomfcrist]

Well diving off a live boat isn't exactly SOP on the majority of boats is it? If its a 6pk of experienced tec divers, your scenario is feasible. If there are ANY lesser experienced divers on board, the only live boat entry will be the DM to tie in.
So with all that being said, I stand behind my previous comment by clarifying that 99% of dives are conducted by lesser experienced divers, thus are done from an anchored/moored boat.....therefor following the line is the only safe bet to actually find the wreck when the current gets bad.

I don't see using the anchor line as a waste of energy. It's all about how you do it. Negative entry's and hand over hand drops to the wreck are not excessively difficult, and when conducted efficiently will waste almost no energy at all. We do it all the time and still manage long bottom times and low sac rates.

 

[uncfnp]

I have more time to post and to read more of the comments. The plan was to go down the anchor line and that was very helpful to keep us oriented when there was a good deal of current in the first 15'. (I burn through 500lbs of a 100cf tank to get down, even now, today. But much less than that to come up and do a safety stop. Hmmm..I wonder why?)

But after a few minutes at the bottom I could not have found my way reliably to the anchor line to ascend. Therefore I would not bolt from a DM that does know her way back and has more gas and more experience than I.

We have now made 5 dives in similar conditions with less current. It gets easier every time. I am glad we spent a week diving in the Keys before this where the depth was less -- no guides there. We got lost a few times but just came up from 15 - 25 ft and looked around. Can't do that here + surface current = stay with dive guide.

Lynn. Yeah, sure we should have more training. Should we not be here because we could not do the dive on our own? Possibly we should have called the dive due to current. But you can't spend all your time training, and real life dives that stretch you are fun and learning experiences. We made some mistakes and became better divers for it.

Bill

I wonder why as well. That's a lot of air to drop 60 feet. Is it trouble equalizing? Underweighted? Is it the technique of going down an anchor line?

 

[Hepcat62]

Have you had a chance to read through NWgratefuldiver's gas planning document? Did Peter_C discuss gas planning with you when you went for a dive with him?

They're aware of the doc (not sure if they ended up reading/processing it), and the principles were discussed in a general way prior to sending out the link to the doc. I had hoped to go through it with Bill in more detail before their trip, but work has been insane and that, unfortunately, didn't happen.

So, there's a positive here - assuming what Bill wrote is accurate, he was actually monitoring his gauges well enough to recall actual pressure numbers at a few key points in the dive, and he was aware enough to identify some rising anxiety and associated increased air consumption. THAT IS GOOD, and should be commended. I've met plenty of new'ish divers who were not that aware (scary as that sounds to many of us).

The most concerning thing to me about this dive is that Bill was aware enough during the dive to see those issues, but did not act in a way that took responsibility for what he saw. Hopefully that lesson has sunk in at this point, because that's by far the most egregious failure here. As others have said, you are ultimately responsible for your own safety, and when you recognize a potential problem that could lead to an emergency (having to share air is definitely an emergency) your training has definitely given you a solution - ascend, with your buddy, on the up-line if possible.

We all returned safely and ascended slowly. So a happy ending. But we did both run out, and good thing there were TWO dive guides!

Bill - this concerns me a bit, because to me it represents a risky view of things and we've talked a bit about some of this before. I know it's semantics on some level, but I would argue that you did not return "safely". You returned successfully. Many "successful" dives are conducted every day, all over the world, but not all of them are "safe".

 

[Steve_C]

Dan

So let me get this straight. You are recommending that the captain drop 9 buddy pairs, many of unknown drop rates, in some cases instabuddy pairs, of widely varied experience, so that all hit a wreck in 20 ft, maybe less, of viz. Then he has to deal with these same buddy pairs making free ascents and scattered all over.

In contrast he drops an anchor and the mate ties him into the wreck. Then the DM gives the dive report. Oh, you know that 40 ft of viz yersterday. Well it is 10 ft today. My buddy and I splash. He has a little ear problem or an equipment issue. No problem we hang out on the hang bar until he has it cleared up and we make a slow descent along the anchor line and get to the wreck. Frequently it is a controlled drop. Time to come up all the divers come up the line. Doing their safety stops along the way. They return to the boat at widely varying intervals. That is not to say sometimes somebody does not get lost. Usually on a ledge but it can happen on one of the more busted up wrecks. Then they shoot an SMB and get picked up after the other divers are up.

The system is safe, accommodates a wide range of skill types and adapts to a wide range of on site conditions. It is also more relaxing and less stressful on all concerned. Crew and divers.

Not saying that for certain divers and certain water conditions it would not make sense (skilled divers and good viz). But for typical dive conditions and a typical group of divers in our waters I would consider it fool hardy and negligent. Exception is if they run a drift dive but those are advertised as such and SMBs etc are required. Also required on fossil ledge where folks tend to get separated and have to make open water ascents.

 

[danvolker]

Well diving off a live boat isn't exactly SOP on the majority of boats is it? If its a 6pk of experienced tec divers, your scenario is feasible. If there are ANY lesser experienced divers on board, the only live boat entry will be the DM to tie in.
So with all that being said, I stand behind my previous comment by clarifying that 99% of dives are conducted by lesser experienced divers, thus are done from an anchored/moored boat.....therefor following the line is the only safe bet to actually find the wreck when the current gets bad.

I don't see using the anchor line as a waste of energy. It's all about how you do it. Negative entry's and hand over hand drops to the wreck are not excessively difficult, and when conducted efficiently will waste almost no energy at all. We do it all the time and still manage long bottom times and low sac rates.

Tom,
I guess that is the dis-connect on this... I live in a place where all dives are from a live boat, and all divers drop fast on an advanced boat....if you are advanced, you dive on and advanced boat...if you are on a mixed skill boat, there will be multiple drops to acount for different descending speeds....and in a 20 pack boat, there will sometimes be more than one drop, depending on how fast the current is, and how fast the divers are at jumping off the boat.

I think the real "skill" is with the Captain of the boat. The fast descent thing is easy.....the captains that do perfect drops all the time, are the ones we like to dive with...the ones that give lousy drops, don't stay long in this area

 

[Hepcat62]

I have more time to post and to read more of the comments. The plan was to go down the anchor line and that was very helpful to keep us oriented when there was a good deal of current in the first 15'. (I burn through 500lbs of a 100cf tank to get down, even now, today. But much less than that to come up and do a safety stop. Hmmm..I wonder why?)

Lack of comfort, overabundance of stress. This will improve with technique and time.

But after a few minutes at the bottom I could not have found my way reliably to the anchor line to ascend. Therefore I would not bolt from a DM that does know her way back and has more gas and more experience than I.

...

Can't do that here + surface current = stay with dive guide.

I do think that this needs to be addressed. In a situation where there is something preventing or discouraging you from ascending directly (surface current, in this case), you must be even MORE aware and MORE diligent about protecting yourself. Navigational awareness on a dive like this is important, for precisely the reasons you've outlined. For me, carrying an SMB would be mandatory on that sort of dive, and depending on the magnitude of the current and the way the boat runs I would consider diving using thirds, rather than halves. That would have put you WELL below the pressure where you should have turned the dive when you failed to signal a turn to the guide.

Lynn. Yeah, sure we should have more training. Should we not be here because we could not do the dive on our own? Possibly we should have called the dive due to current. But you can't spend all your time training, and real life dives that stretch you are fun and learning experiences. We made some mistakes and became better divers for it.

There's definitely some truth in what you've said here, but it's a matter of degree. Pushing a little bit can be good sometimes, especially under the supervision of somebody ACTUALLY capable of helping you succeed (this is rarer than you'd think). Pushing yourself too far beyond your training/experience/etc. can lead to tragedy. Determining which one of those scenarios a given dive represents for you can be difficult, but is ultimately an extremely important skill to have.

 

[Atom]

I have been doing this for decades....even the 280 foot deep stuff....but the boat would drop up current --we would drop fast, and end up on or very close to the wreck. If we could do this in full gulf stream intrusion off Palm Beach or Lauderdale, I don't see what the big deal is going to be in these other areas...whatever difference there is, I think is more the skill of the boat captain in figuring the distance up current to drop a buddy pair....the captain does need to know about how fast the buddy pair descends....

In 80 to 100 feet of water it is so easy.....while the anchor line version of the same wreck can be a miserable waste of energy.

What do yo do to go up? Shoot a bag drift and get picked up?

I don't think it's a unworkable plan, but some conditions might introduce drawbacks that have to be weighted against the gains.

First, like you said, people who can equalize fast exists, if you're a open charter it might be best to cater to those people too.

Currents that differs at variable depth unpredictably coupled with low vis could really make this hard to accomplish reliably.

I'm not sure what I prefer, certainty of hitting the wreck or losing a few minutes.

My local reality is high current, low vis (I've been less than 15 ft to a wreck without seeing it) and trying to avoid drifting in the shipping channel so I'm not sure lines are that bad

Although, as a person who equalizes easily I'd really like to try a fast drop on a wreck someday,sounds like a lot of fun and less work.

 

[danvolker]

Dan

So let me get this straight. You are recommending that the captain drop 9 buddy pairs, many of unknown drop rates, in some cases instabuddy pairs, of widely varied experience, so that all hit a wreck in 20 ft, maybe less, of viz. Then he has to deal with these same buddy pairs making free ascents and scattered all over.

9 buddy pairs on a 100 foot site should be able to be dropped in either one to two drops....two would mean half the buddy groups splash, then the boat comes around for the second run at the drop coordinates.

Usually someone tows a float....so the boat knows where the group(s) are.

In contrast he drops an anchor and the mate ties him into the wreck. Then the DM gives the dive report. Oh, you know that 40 ft of viz yersterday. Well it is 10 ft today. My buddy and I splash. He has a little ear problem or an equipment issue. No problem we hang out on the hang bar until he has it cleared up and we make a slow descent along the anchor line and get to the wreck. Frequently it is a controlled drop. Time to come up all the divers come up the line. Doing their safety stops along the way. They return to the boat at widely varying intervals. That is not to say sometimes somebody does not get lost. Usually on a ledge but it can happen on one of the more busted up wrecks. Then they shoot an SMB and get picked up after the other divers are up.

We will know if the vis is 10 feet or less before we are to jump in....20 foot vis is easy enough to hit the mark on the bottom with, even if it is a poor dive with vis this bad ( as a video shooter, there is no value whatsoever in doing a dive in vis this low--for what I want). If I was spearfishing, it would be fine. If there is an ear or equipment issue, the buddy pair will need to get back on the boat, fix their problem, and be re-dropped. The whole group should not be penalized for thier problem.

We all have a max bottom time.....a group will go up with the guide towing a float line....anyone not going up with them will shoot a bag.
The boat will see each float and pick up each....We do this every day in Palm Beach....I have done anchor dives in Lauderdale and Miami and hated this nonsense, and would then have the captains drop us the way we wanted--it would always be better....
Why be on an ascent line with 20 other divers when you can do your ascent in comfort with no line?

Sorry, I just really don't like anchor diving in a current. It makes no sense. If the water is still water, fine, anchor, but then there is no reason to go up and down the line.....

 

[billt4sf]

Brian: agreed.

It takes us 500lbs to get down to 50 - 60fsw, and 300 to get up & make a safety stop. I assume that is because there is a surface current that we swim into to get to the bow line, but carries us toward the stern.

I had just a few hundred lbs when I reached the anchor line, my mistake in the first post. We started sharing before I totally ran out, in order to have some for my BC and in case we got separated. I usually keep my reg in going up the ladder.

One thing that bothers me is that Emily ran out -- completely out -- and I don't understand why. She had an unidentified problem with her primary, switched to her secondary, and quickly dropped from close to 500 to zero. The other dive guide -- one of the ones that some said we should have turned on -- shared air with her. We tested her tank at the boat and it was empty.

Bill