How those idiots (us) run out of air

[Imla]

I agree with you that he needed to check his gauges, and be competent to know when to TURN the dive....
However, once he realized he was low on air, he and the wife should have decided to go straight to the surface at a 30 foot per minute ascent, with no stops, and if they air pressure was getting close to 300, the speed of surfacing could be BC assisted at maximum speed without kicking--just exhaling and breathing as needed.

As they were on the verge of running OOA, the significance of the stop was zero.
I don't know why so many new divers that are low on gas, think they need to do a stop, and then risk actually running OOA and drowning...I think this is a very poor decision making failure, and it should have been covered in their training classes.

Also....this is a No-Deco....or a No-Stop dive...that is what a recreational dive is. Not running out of air is job one.

The whole idea of "turning the dive" in this sense, is silly....this was not a cave dive...there is no virtual overhead.
The moment he realized he screwed up, and was dangerously low on air, the only choice for he and his wife was an immediate direct ascent --straight up. The DM from the story, sounded to be incompetent in managing this couple, but more than likely the DM was only a guide, and had no idea this couple was expecting her to be holding their hands throughout the dive.

Show me a diver afraid to do what you guys are calling a "blue water ascent", a direct ascent without a line--and I will show you a diver that has been improperly trained. To me, this is worse than the silting the bottom nonsense, or the need to be standing on the bottom in order to clear your mask.......These are supposed to be OPEN WATER DIVERS...key in this is that they can ALWAYS do a Direct Ascent to the surface....that is a straight up ascent.

I agree with you that what they should do in a LOG scenario would be to ascent directly and skip the stop. No arguments there.

However... this was about what they really should have paid attention to to AVOID the whole "getting low on air" which I find would be completely unnessesary if they had just kept an eye on their gauges, and navigated their dive so that they would end up at the spot they wanted to be in when they ascended.

As you said.. NOT running out of air is JOB ONE!! You do not need a overhead (virtual or otherwize) to find that it might be smart to return to where you jumped in for your ascent. When diving off a moored boat, getting picked up if you end up far from it could take time, or involve a lot of swimming. (Might not even be possible without having the boat get to you) His job as a diver, and a good buddy, is to manage his own gas, so that he knows he will be back at the boat and topside with adequate reserves.

You cannot tell anything about the DM In question from the story. It is NOT her job to mind HIS GAS. HE is a CERTIFIED diver, and should know 1) Manage gas 2) Buddyawareness 3) Enough nav. to get back to the boat and 4) a proper bluewater ascent WITH stop and SMB (Because he SHOULD know how to manage his gas, so he can do the stop)

What I am trying to say is that the focus on this thread has increasingly been accepting "that the DM was at fault". Which in my opinion she wasnt. He gave her the WRONG pressure. 1800 in stead of 1300.

and been trying to tell him about emergency procedures. How about telling him about the correct choices that would have prevented this from happening in the first place? (The thread started with this)

Gas management
Navigation
Awareness
Proper buoyancy and ascents
SMBs

With these skills they both would have been on the boat, and had the planned amount of gas left.

This is not a dive where an accident happened. This is a dive where lack of skills nearly caused fatalities.

 

[phoenix31tt]

I agree with you that what they should do in a LOG scenario would be to ascent directly and skip the stop. No arguments there.

However... this was about what they really should have paid attention to to AVOID the whole "getting low on air" which I find would be completely unnessesary if they had just kept an eye on their gauges, and navigated their dive so that they would end up at the spot they wanted to be in when they ascended.

maybe I read wrong...

I thought the scenario went like this:

1. improperly communicated his air to DM... he signaled 1800 when he meant 1300 - so he WAS paying attention to his gauge
2. DM continued to lead dive assuming everything was ok, bill/wife followed until the DM turned at the normal turning time (DM of course assumed everyone's air was good to go)
3. Air sharing began because obviously they didn't have enough air

so the real issue was and has always been, their inability to do the ascent by themselves... they knew how much air they had... it wasn't like they were surprised when they looked down on their gauge and realized 500psi... its just that they choose to follow the DM and not dive according to how much air they really had

 

[Adobo]

I don't really get this. There is no requirement that an ascent be vertical. Swimming up a line works fine, as long as you make sure that your rate of vertical rise is what you want it to be.

^ This....

In Monterey, under normal circumstances, the captain will want you to ascend on the upline. This is useful in that the boat offers the diver some shelter from other boat traffic. It also allows the boat to keep the divers somewhat corralled. In these cases, the upline is usually on some sort of diagonal as opposed to straight up and down. How much of a diagonal is usually determined by how much current there is underwater and how much wind there is topside. Learning to ascend on an upline like this is actually useful in that, that is how boat diving is conducted in Monterey (the closest dive location to Bill). Keeping together with you dive buddies (same depth, same relative position) is not trivial, especially if there is current.

In the case of an emergency, the priority is no longer to ascend on the upline. The priority is just to get to the surface in an expedient manner. The emergency could have occurred while the divers are far away from the upline. As such, the ascent will begin wherever the divers happen to be.

If this emergency happened in my dive group, I would seriously consider putting up an SMB. First, ascending with a visual reference like an smb/line/spool is usually easier than simply staring at your gauge and dive buddies. Second, an SMB not only alerts the boat crew that a dive group is ascending away from the boat, it also helps in case there are is any other boat traffic in the area. Of course, we usually weigh the benefit of putting up the SMB against the disadvantages (e.g. is there enough time/gas to do put up the SMB? Also, line is evil.)

I've done a fair number of ascending both on the boat's anchor line as well as on a line from an SMB I put up myself (done on drift dives). I find the latter to be far easier and more relaxing than the former. I think that if a diver is to do boat dives in Monterey, both types of ascents should be practiced as there is not one approach that is applicable for all situations.

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 12:12 PM ----------

I agree with you that he needed to check his gauges, and be competent to know when to TURN the dive....
However, once he realized he was low on air, he and the wife should have decided to go straight to the surface at a 30 foot per minute ascent, with no stops, and if they air pressure was getting close to 300, the speed of surfacing could be BC assisted at maximum speed without kicking--just exhaling and breathing as needed.

As they were on the verge of running OOA, the significance of the stop was zero.
I don't know why so many new divers that are low on gas, think they need to do a stop, and then risk actually running OOA and drowning...I think this is a very poor decision making failure, and it should have been covered in their training classes.

Also....this is a No-Deco....or a No-Stop dive...that is what a recreational dive is. Not running out of air is job one.

The whole idea of "turning the dive" in this sense, is silly....this was not a cave dive...there is no virtual overhead.
The moment he realized he screwed up, and was dangerously low on air, the only choice for he and his wife was an immediate direct ascent --straight up. The DM from the story, sounded to be incompetent in managing this couple, but more than likely the DM was only a guide, and had no idea this couple was expecting her to be holding their hands throughout the dive.

Show me a diver afraid to do what you guys are calling a "blue water ascent", a direct ascent without a line--and I will show you a diver that has been improperly trained. To me, this is worse than the silting the bottom nonsense, or the need to be standing on the bottom in order to clear your mask.......These are supposed to be OPEN WATER DIVERS...key in this is that they can ALWAYS do a Direct Ascent to the surface....that is a straight up ascent.

Two thoughts on this..

1) I think the idea is that divers need to get ahead of the curve on these types of things. Its good to be able to do put up SMBs and ascending in a proficient fashion in case of emergencies. Its also good (if not gooder ) to be ahead of these completely avoidable emergencies in the first place.

2) I don't know about the boat diving in Florida but the boat diving in Monterey... the captain always recommends that the divers ascend on the anchor line. Its not mandatory on recreational boats but is recommended. If divers are to make an effort to do so, they must at some point, make the decision that it is time to work their way back to where the anchor is. And they have to reserve enough gas to do so.. I think in this case, the notion of "turn pressure" is applicable.

 

[danvolker]

Another issue.....the percieved danger/threat of floating on the surface and being lost/unseen by the boat....versus drowning from being OOA.
Not sure how a diver can be this stupid, but apparently this is a common enough issue, for the diver(s) to fear floating on the surface away from an anchor line, more than being OOA.....

I am assuming they just don't really believe that they will actually run out of air....

They do need to be taught/aware that floating on the surface with no boat in sight is not such a big deal....It would be more of a concern if you are 25 miles from shore, but for most dive sites, the diver is in a high trafic reef area where someone will be likely to find them soon....and every diver is supposed to be able to float with their BC on, pretty much to the point of this being equivalent to being in a life boat. Maybe the fear is from these divers having been passed on a OW course without any swimming skills, so they are inherently afraid of being in the water by themselves.

Whatever it is, this needs to be addressed. Floating with no boat in sight is no real problem.....drowning from being OOA is a big problem.

 

[Adventure-Ocean]

It does seem odd that we very slowly consume our air and yet run too low and create emergencies. We clearly have all the time we need. The answer is simple, we make the wrong choices. Too many wrong choices in diving can have very negative results. You miss managed your air. You and your buddy's safety should always be first when making decisions. Should it be even slightly threatend you should deal with it as the highest priority. I would stick to using dive guides for a while. If you and your wife ran out of air, you may want to make more training dives before diving on your own.

ADVENTURE-OCEAN - Home

 

[danvolker]

^ This....

In Monterey, under normal circumstances, the captain will want you to ascend on the upline. This is useful in that the boat offers the diver some shelter from other boat traffic. It also allows the boat to keep the divers somewhat corralled. In these cases, the upline is usually on some sort of diagonal as opposed to straight up and down. How much of a diagonal is usually determined by how much current there is underwater and how much wind there is topside. Learning to ascend on an upline like this is actually useful in that, that is how boat diving is conducted in Monterey (the closest dive location to Bill). Keeping together with you dive buddies (same depth, same relative position) is not trivial, especially if there is current.

In the case of an emergency, the priority is no longer to ascend on the upline. The priority is just to get to the surface in an expedient manner. The emergency could have occurred while the divers are far away from the upline. As such, the ascent will begin wherever the divers happen to be.

If this emergency happened in my dive group, I would seriously consider putting up an SMB. First, ascending with a visual reference like an smb/line/spool is usually easier than simply staring at your gauge and dive buddies. Second, an SMB not only alerts the boat crew that a dive group is ascending away from the boat, it also helps in case there are is any other boat traffic in the area. Of course, we usually weigh the benefit of putting up the SMB against the disadvantages (e.g. is there enough time/gas to do put up the SMB? Also, line is evil.)

I've done a fair number of ascending both on the boat's anchor line as well as on a line from an SMB I put up myself (done on drift dives). I find the latter to be far easier and more relaxing than the former. I think that if a diver is to do boat dives in Monterey, both types of ascents should be practiced as there is not one approach that is applicable for all situations.

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 12:12 PM ----------



Two thoughts on this..

1) I think the idea is that divers need to get ahead of the curve on these types of things. Its good to be able to do put up SMBs and ascending in a proficient fashion in case of emergencies. Its also good (if not gooder ) to be ahead of these completely avoidable emergencies in the first place.

2) I don't know about the boat diving in Florida but the boat diving in Monterey... the captain always recommends that the divers ascend on the anchor line. Its not mandatory on recreational boats but is recommended. If divers are to make an effort to do so, they must at some point, make the decision that it is time to work their way back to where the anchor is. And they have to reserve enough gas to do so.. I think in this case, the notion of "turn pressure" is applicable.

I am fine with this procedure when there is proper gas planning and the diver turns the dive in time to have plenty of gas for the return up the line. There is no excuse for NOT having planned this and stayed vigilant with remaining air pressure. This was a case where the divers had no where near enough gas to "turn" the dive....the "turn" needed to be abandoned, and they needed an immediate ascent to the surface. Their minds were not processing the important issues.

 

[Adobo]

Incidentally, its unfortunate that there are no instructors that teach:
- how to properly plan a dive (including calculating min. gas)
- how to put up an SMB and have a dive group ascend on that line
- how to execute an air share, put up an SMB and ascend on that line
- how to keep the dive group together during the course of a normal dive as well as part of an expedited ascent

If there was a class like this, I imagine many divers would benefit greatly from it.

 

[fisheater]

Incidentally, its unfortunate that there are no instructors that teach:
- how to properly plan a dive (including calculating min. gas)
- how to put up an SMB and have a dive group ascend on that line
- how to execute an air share, put up an SMB and ascend on that line
- how to keep the dive group together during the course of a normal dive as well as part of an expedited ascent

If there was a class like this, I imagine many divers would benefit greatly from it.

What would you call such a miracle course? Would it enable its graduates to Explore the Globe Underwater? Would we call it EGU, for short?

 

[Adobo]

What you can such a miracle course? Would it enable its graduates to Explore the Globe Underwater? Would we call it EGU, for short?

Well, in my area, there isn't one instructor who teaches such a course.

 

[Hepcat62]

Well, in my area, there isn't one instructor who teaches such a course.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Rob taught a GUE Rec1 course in May. That course covers everything on your list, although I'm not sure what the requirements are with respect to air shares while ascending with a bag shot...

(or was your point that there are three? )