How those idiots (us) run out of air

[tracydr]

That's the class I am looking for! Add basic navigation.

Bill

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 02:02 PM ----------



I read thru most of the rest of the comments and I like these ideas the best. Thanks, Bob!

I am nervous about shooting a bag the first few times without someone teaching us.

Bill

Do you have acsess to a pool that allows diving? Some cities have certain hours that allow diving practice or some shops allow practicing at certain times. I would recommend practicing in a pool if at all possible. This is a great thing to play around with in a swimming pool.
The other option would be taking the GUE primer class. ( check to see that they teach SMB in primer, you may need to take the Fundies to learn the SMB). Or, a private lesson from a GUE instructor. You have a bunch or them in your area.
Navigation, you can start practicing on dry land, in a park or field, then start doing it every single dive. I highly recommend the Suunto compass and a bungee mount from DSS. Much easier to use than a console compass. Both you and your wife take a heading, first check before hitting the water, then before dropping down, then before taking off at the bottom. At first just try to do straight line out and backs, work on short sets of 25-50 fin cycles. I like to use a piece of line that I've premeasured to tie off on the bottom somehow, than measure my fin cycles several times with this in really shallow water. We do it in about 6-10 feet of water at the lake in the summer when its nice and warm.
there is a Search and Recovery specialty, if you feel that you want a specific class. It will also teach you how to use lift bags, which will help you with SMBs.

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 08:26 PM ----------

I call it "Open Water Diver," although shooting the bag comes in either "wreck" or "deep." Shooting a bag during an air share isn't covered because of the level of Darwin's-balls-kicking required to get to that point on an OW dive.

The first priority is "Don't run out of air!" If they can get that part nailed, the other parts become less urgent.

Oddly enough, with all this talk of ascending up a line, I never even saw an up-line until I went wreck diving on a popular site that had a mooring block. I remember thinking, "wow, that makes it really easy and feel like cheating!" but until that point, I has never seen one and though all ascents were free.

flots

Me neither. In fact, I never knew direct ascents were supposed to be hard until I started reading SB. Than again, I tend to do things the hard way most times.
I didn't take AOW until I was close to 200 dives so I may have missed something along the way? I just swam up, and watched my bubbles to make sure I didn't go to fast. Then I got a computer after a few years and made sure it didn't yell at me.

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 09:20 PM ----------

Back to my question: what's the best way to learn open water ascents?

Bill

What about taking a GUE Rec or Fundies class from Rob?

 

[billt4sf]

Rob who?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Back to my question: what's the best way to learn open water ascents?

Bill

Bob laid it out very well. I have ow students do it in the pool. Starting by counting tiles as they ascend and descend. The key is to pay close attention to your body. Your ears are a great indicator of depth changes. Feel them and how they react at different ascent rates. And the idea of shooting a bag and tying it off is another excellent one. Personally I use my bottom timer as a reference most times as it tells me the two most inportant things I need to know. Depth and time as I pay attention to my ears.

Blue water ascents unaided in the beginning are tricky and IMO dangerous for new divers without some reference. That's why bag shoots are a part of my OW plus and all advanced level training. You then have a visual amd tactile reference. But none of that is worth a crap if you don't trust yourself and your buddy over some DM.

You have to get it in your head that the DM is a Guide looking out for their tips. Not you. Once you do that planning your own dive and your own escape route should the DM be a putz becomes second nature and you end up with the judgment necessary to do the dives safely. Until then anything other than benign conditions with a hard bottom at 60 ft or less is not a wise dive to be out on. If the DM has to plan it and get you down and back up better to sit the dive out.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If there is current, are you really doing a STRAIGHT UP ascent?

... in the frame of reference that matters ... yes. You're moving over the ground ... but the water is moving with you, so in your frame of reference you're going straight up ... and there is no current.

If you're going to be putting yourself in a moving environment, you have to think in those terms ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 06:04 AM ----------

This is a basic skills problem. He needs to know how to do a proper ascent WITH his safetystop, and still know he planned the dive and did the dive in such a way that he ends up ON the boat, with the planned amout of gas left.

... if you're in danger of running out of air, SKIP THE SAFETY STOP! The priority is breathing. As long as you've not exceeded your NDL, the safety stop is optional. Breathing is not.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 06:10 AM ----------

Incidentally, its unfortunate that there are no instructors that teach:
- how to properly plan a dive (including calculating min. gas)
- how to put up an SMB and have a dive group ascend on that line
- how to execute an air share, put up an SMB and ascend on that line
- how to keep the dive group together during the course of a normal dive as well as part of an expedited ascent

If there was a class like this, I imagine many divers would benefit greatly from it.

That's the class I am looking for! Add basic navigation.

Bill

---------- Post added July 4th, 2013 at 02:02 PM ----------



I read thru most of the rest of the comments and I like these ideas the best. Thanks, Bob!

I am nervous about shooting a bag the first few times without someone teaching us.

Bill

... then come spend a couple weeks in the Seattle area ... I teach all of that, including navigation, in the NAUI AOW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 06:20 AM ----------

Bill, shooting a bag is not going to get you safely to the surface...it is a way for the boat you came on to "track" where you are doing your stop....

What you really need is an instructor to work with you on the vertical ascents from 60 feet, straight up to the surface, no lines, no smb.

Worry about the SMB when you have been diving long enough to lead a group yourself.

Shooting a bag does more than just help the boat ... it gives you that vertical reference some folks feel more comfortable with as well. You've now got an "anchor line" to the surface ... and for the diver uncomfortable with doing ascents without any visual reference at all, it makes the ascent much easier ... mentally if not physically, and the mental component of diving needs to be recognized and accommodated as much as the physical.

You don't need to practice this from 60 feet ... if you can get comfortable doing it from 20, then doing it at 60 isn't a bit more difficult ... as long as you've got enough line on your spool. In fact, it's a bit easier ... if you remember that you don't need to put as much air in your bag for it to be full on the surface.

In many environments ... including where Bill lives ... shooting a bag isn't something you need for leading a group. It's a basic skill that every diver that dives off a boat should have. That's why I teach it at the AOW level. I once had a student find himself needful of the skill just a couple weeks after he learned it in my class. He and a buddy were diving in the San Juan's and got swept away from shore by a converging current. As the bottom dropped away (at a depth of about 70 feet), the buddy bolted for the surface. My student shot a bag and ascended more orderly. When he reached the surface, he was a quarter-mile from the site ... the boat was 30 feet away, following his bag ... and his dive buddy was already on board. I still have the Thank You card he sent me for training him how to deal with that situation ... the dude had about 30 dives, and had never "led" a dive in his life. But he knew what to do, and just focused on doing it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 06:31 AM ----------

Back to my question: what's the best way to learn open water ascents?

Bill

Practice.

I don't know about your area, but since last year I've been offering a four-dive skills workshop that is tailored to whatever skills the recreational-level diver wants to learn. It's proven not just popular, but an effective way for the student to focus on whatever skills they've come to me for help learning.

If you can find an instructor in your area that offers workshops, then put together a program that addresses the specific skills you want to work on. You won't get a certification card out of it, but you WILL improve the skills you feel you're weak in ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Tortuga68]

... in the frame of reference that matters ... yes. You're moving over the ground ... but the water is moving with you, so in your frame of reference you're going straight up ... and there is no current.

My post was in response to Dan's comment:

"if you need to ascend due to a low on air issue....your ascent needs to be STRAIGHT UP....if there is a current, the line may be at a 30 or 40 degree angle or much worse.....you would also waste huge amounts of time traversing the horizontal component of the line...."

The correct approach in either case would be to ascend at an approriate rate (9m/minute for rec. diving, plus safety stop if gas allows) in which case it won't make any difference whether you are going up a line or not. Since we're discussing a LOG ascent, the important thing is to get up as quickly as is safely possible, which will reduce gas consumption as well as allowing access to the surface ASAP

Going up a line that is at X degrees at 9m/min takes the same amount of time as going "straight up" at 9m/min.

Most OW divers will do a better job of maintaining the correct ascent rate by following some sort of visual reference (anchor line, DSMB) rather than doing a 'blue water' ascent on their depth gauge/computer. In fact if you take into account the time it takes to send up the DSMB (given the low skill of most rec. divers at this task), going up a line will be quicker - not to mention less risk of entanglement etc. which could have an adverse affect (ascending too fast, increasing gas consumption)

 

[danvolker]

My post was in response to Dan's comment:

"if you need to ascend due to a low on air issue....your ascent needs to be STRAIGHT UP....if there is a current, the line may be at a 30 or 40 degree angle or much worse.....you would also waste huge amounts of time traversing the horizontal component of the line...."

The correct approach in either case would be to ascend at an approriate rate (9m/minute for rec. diving, plus safety stop if gas allows) in which case it won't make any difference whether you are going up a line or not. Since we're discussing a LOG ascent, the important thing is to get up as quickly as is safely possible, which will reduce gas consumption as well as allowing access to the surface ASAP

Going up a line that is at X degrees at 9m/min takes the same amount of time as going "straight up" at 9m/min.

Most OW divers will do a better job of maintaining the correct ascent rate by following some sort of visual reference (anchor line, DSMB) rather than doing a 'blue water' ascent on their depth gauge/computer. In fact if you take into account the time it takes to send up the DSMB (given the low skill of most rec. divers at this task), going up a line will be quicker - not to mention less risk of entanglement etc. which could have an adverse affect (ascending too fast, increasing gas consumption)

Why would you say something like this? In this case, the expectation became that they would be OOA. Buddy sharing in fact had to occur.
In this scenario--the one we are actually discussing, it would be foolish to contemplate a safety stop, and any real concern for the ascent rate is a mistake, beyond the notion that it can't be faster than the rate at which the diver can exhale sufficiently---and this is more about what BC they are wearing ( if they have some huge monster BC with 100 pounds of lift, then they may not be able to just let it take them without too fast an ascent to manage exhales for)...if they are using a 30 pound lift wing, and are not medically challenged with bad lungs, they should be able to let the BC take them up at it's speed.

This is OOA drowning they are trying to avoid.... your ideas about ascent up a partially horizontal line, are dangerously wrong for this scenario.....Now if they had planned every thing correctly, then your comments would be right on target--in this thread, in this discussion, they did not.

 

[Tortuga68]

Why would you say something like this? In this case, the expectation became that they would be OOA. Buddy sharing in fact had to occur

Let me refresh your memory; I was responding to this quote of yours:

In my mind, if you need to ascend due to a low on air issue....your ascent needs to be STRAIGHT UP

In this scenario--the one we are actually discussing, it would be foolish to contemplate a safety stop

Notwithstanding that I was replying to your quote above about LOG (not OOG), I did say "plus safety stop if gas allows"

any real concern for the ascent rate is a mistake, beyond the notion that it can't be faster than the rate at which the diver can exhale sufficiently---and this is more about what BC they are wearing ( if they have some huge monster BC with 100 pounds of lift, then they may not be able to just let it take them without too fast an ascent to manage exhales for)...if they are using a 30 pound lift wing, and are not medically challenged with bad lungs, they should be able to let the BC take them up at it's speed

Once again, I was responding to your quote above about LOG - not OOG. Obviously OOG would demand different priorities, better bent than dead.

your ideas about ascent up a partially horizontal line, are dangerously wrong for this scenario...

At the risk of repeating myself, the scenario which YOU MENTIONED is LOG not OOG. However do please feel free to explain how Xm/min up a line and Xm/min in free ascent get you to the surface at different times

 

[doctormike]

In this scenario--the one we are actually discussing, it would be foolish to contemplate a safety stop

Possibly true. However, having taken a chamber ride myself for an "underserved" hit, if I were sharing air with someone with a reasonably full tank (say, 500 PSI) at 15 feet, especially with the additional control afforded by hanging on an ascent line, I would do the stop. In the very unlikely event that the SPG is over reading or something, you could CESA, but it would be pretty unlikely that would occur.

Of course, this would be a situation specific decision, and if there was panic, or lack of control of the injured diver, etc.. then I agree - surface without the delay of the safety stop.

any real concern for the ascent rate is a mistake, beyond the notion that it can't be faster than the rate at which the diver can exhale sufficiently---and this is more about what BC they are wearing ( if they have some huge monster BC with 100 pounds of lift, then they may not be able to just let it take them without too fast an ascent to manage exhales for)...if they are using a 30 pound lift wing, and are not medically challenged with bad lungs, they should be able to let the BC take them up at it's speed.

This is of course different than blowing off a safety stop. I don't agree with you here, but again, obviously OOA with no on to share with is different from LOG and/or OOA with a buddy donating a second stage. In the scenario that the OP posted, they were sharing air on the ascent line and made it back OK (which leads me to believe that the DMs donating air had adequate gas reserves). In that scenario, a bolt for the surface, even from relatively shallow depths, does put a diver at risk for DCS and possibly pulmonary barotrauma if a panicked diver doesn't open his or her airway adequately. Sure, if the alternative is drowning, you do what you need to do to get to the big gas reserve on the surface. But the way the OP described the scenario, it doesn't sound like that was the case...

 

[TSandM]

Bill, the best way to learn blue water ascents is to practice them. You start in shallow water (say, 20 feet) and position yourselves face to face, and signal the ascent. Go up to 10 feet and stop -- try to stay face to face (or shoulder to shoulder, if there is current). Go up to 5 feet and stop. Then do a very slow float to the surface. Control in deeper water is no different from (and sometimes easier than) control in shallow water.

I did a LOT of this when I was learning -- in fact, one of my mentors started a thread (which apparently no longer exists), entitled, "What do you do when your buddy corks?"

I think you have access to some very good coaches. Rob Lee, who is the "Rob" referred to above, is one of Monterey's GUE instructors (you lucky folks have THREE) and I'm sure he could help you with your issues, but I also think that, either by yourselves or with some mentors, you can easily work on some of these things.

 

[supergaijin]

Free water ascents: You need to know which way is 'Up'. Your bubbles go up... so follow your bubbles. When you feel your BCD getting buoyant, release some of the air to maintain a proper ascent rate. Slow your ascent as much as possible in the last 10'- I disagree with someone earlier who said they quickly ascend to check for boats. Motor boats are loud- if you hear one be prepared to get back down. When you're at the surface get positively buoyant so you're also able to be seen- if you're not, you're a speedbump.

Dive computers also give a good indication of ascent speed. Ears popping also indicate an ascent.

OP- take your SMB out of the wrapper! Take the cord off (if it has one) until you learn to deploy underwater. This is a seperate skill and takes time to master, and repetition to be reliable. Most 'cheap' SMBs will fail pretty easily from the seams if deployed underwater repeatedly. They're fine if only used at the surface.

Keep diving, keep learning.