How those idiots (us) run out of air

[MXGratefulDiver]

What are the steps to master this? What we are doing now is to use the line as a visual aid and ascend next to it. We consistently do well except when there is current -- we don't want to get blown offline for the sake of practice.

Bill

Bill, the reliance on a visual aid is what's holding you back. As to steps to master it, here's what I suggest.

- Find a site where you can practice ascents from 20 feet ... preferably a place where shore is easily accessible and there's little current to deal with.

- Shoot a bag and tie it off to something on the bottom ... or, if you have one, just plant a buoy. Then swim just far enough away from it so you can't see the line.

- Ascend ... watching your gauge, and counting off one-one thousand, two-one thousand for every foot of depth as you ascend.

- When you surface, note where you are relative to the SMB ... then swim back to it, descend, and repeat.

At first, just pay attention to your depth gauge ... it's the visual reference you've been relying on. After a few attempts, you'll begin to notice the pressure changes in your air spaces ... ears and drysuit (if you're wearing one) specifically ... will tell you as much about your ascent rate as anything you're looking at.

Learn to worry less about getting blown offline ... that's way less of a concern than you're making it out to be. All it means is that you might have to work a bit surface swimming back to where you need to be. On a live boat pickup, it should be no concern at all ... particularly if you ascend using an SMB. The boat will come get you, regardless of where the current takes you. Far more important that you don't run yourself low on ... or out of ... air trying to get back to a stationary place. Having an adequate source of air to breathe is ... always ... the priority.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I slept on it and I am beginning to come around. See what y'all think.

I agree that it was a mistake to think that "I don't have enough air to do what the DM wants but I am going to stick with her". I did think that at some point. Stupid me.

At 50' stressed, when to start for the surface? -- when we know we have enough air to make a it safely, with some reserve. Maybe 500 lbs? I can do an unstressed ascent from 50' next to the line with abt 300 lbs incl. a safety stop -- unstressed. So 500 sounds maybe about right.

Assuming that we had done this, she probably would have noticed us and followed. Actually by the time I was at 500, we were together with her, heading for the mooring line. She should have led us up at an angle, at a minimum at that point. I will mention that to her.

Here's the kicker -- you'll love this. She is a DM in training, with 80 dives. We have about 60. Note to self -- find out the training level and number of dives of everyone I dive with BEFORE starting out.

Am I making progress?

Bill

making a LOT of progress IMHO. I haven't read the entire thread but a fair bit of it. We all learn the hard way it seems. We are fortunate indeed when the cost is light, a bit of stress and embarrassment that may save our lives later.

When I first came to Scubaboard I was put off by the um "enthusiasm" some people seem to employ in delivering their sage advice. Some people are better at getting the message across more gently than others. I have also learned that some need to hear the message in stronger terms. Good advice is good advice no matter how it is delivered. I am glad you have the wisdom to learn so quickly

I will risk that I am repeating what has already been said. It doesn't matter what certificate or how many dives a person has, Some people will try to impress you with numbers and cards while they baffle you with Bull.... 'cause they certainly can't dazzle you with brilliance. Nobody else has enough invested in you or your wife that you should blindly trust them with your lives!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

If you can practice ascents where there is little current that is best.

If you are diving in a current from an anchored boat, then they should have a long line off the back with a float to allow divers who get behind the boat to pull themselves back without too much trouble. So,, you can just swim into the current 250 feet or something, and then ascend there, you should not be too far from the boat when you hit the surface, if the depth is 50-60 ft and the current is moderate.

Also ascending along an anchor line, following it visually is not the best practice, because the line is normally at a somewhat gentle angle, not vertical like the ascent. Just watch your gages, watch the particles in the water, maintain a very slight negative buoyancy and gently kick up. Test you buoyancy on ascent every 15 seconds by not kicking, if you are floating up without kicking, dump a tiny bit of air. And if you start to ascend too fast, dump air the fastest way possible: EXHALE and then vent the BC some.

And I will throw out one more comment, people have tried to make you understand that you are responsible for yourself. But your description of the original incident makes it very clear that you are absolutely certain that the "divemaster" has enough air to get you to the surface in an emergency.

Of course the DM should have enough air, but it sounded to me like the communication between you and the DM was weak and the reality of the situation is that you had NO IDEA if the DM really had the air capacity to assist you. It doesn't matter If the the DM has 50 dives or 5,000, you just can't be making life or death decisions on arbitrary assumptions about other people. You will learn that some DM (and yes some dive instructors) are TERRIBLE divers. In fact, if I am diving with a stranger and they brag about being a DM (or instructor) that makes me MORE nervous about them, not less.

 

[TSandM]

Also ascending along an anchor line, following it visually is not the best practice, because the line is normally at a somewhat gentle angle, not vertical like the ascent

I don't really get this. There is no requirement that an ascent be vertical. Swimming up a line works fine, as long as you make sure that your rate of vertical rise is what you want it to be.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I don't really get this. There is no requirement that an ascent be vertical. Swimming up a line works fine, as long as you make sure that your rate of vertical rise is what you want it to be.

I think the best practice is one that simulates an actual free ascent with no guideline. This is a vertical ascent... going up a sloping anchor line, using it as a visual crutch is fine, but it is not the "BEST" method... I think..

Plus, to be honest, there is almost always some current in the ocean, ascending along an anchor line, will more often than not, require some finning into the current. This active finning is different than an open water ascent that should be performed with a minimal (and eventually with a lot of practice) zero kicking.

The student should be striving for the most gentle, exertion free, perfectly controlled, vertical ascent. Eventually, you would like them to do it in a horizontal position, with zero kicking and using only breath control. This is just not simulated accurately when the diver is having to fin into the current along the anchor line.

 

[danvolker]

I don't really get this. There is no requirement that an ascent be vertical. Swimming up a line works fine, as long as you make sure that your rate of vertical rise is what you want it to be.

In my mind, if you need to ascend due to a low on air issue....your ascent needs to be STRAIGHT UP....if there is a current, the line may be at a 30 or 40 degree angle or much worse.....you would also waste huge amounts of time traversing the horizontal component of the line......If you teach divers to go up and down without a line, and they do this with a high degree of comfort, there is NOTHING TO TEACH when it comes to going up or down a line if they ever find a situation where they need to do this.

What we are seeing, is that those that have all their time going up and down lines, are often afraid to attempt to go up away from the ascent line...that is a big problem!!!!

 

[Tortuga68]

In my mind, if you need to ascend due to a low on air issue....your ascent needs to be STRAIGHT UP....if there is a current, the line may be at a 30 or 40 degree angle or much worse.....you would also waste huge amounts of time traversing the horizontal component of the line......If you teach divers to go up and down without a line, and they do this with a high degree of comfort, there is NOTHING TO TEACH when it comes to going up or down a line if they ever find a situation where they need to do this

If there is current, are you really doing a STRAIGHT UP ascent?

 

[Imla]

In my mind, if you need to ascend due to a low on air issue....your ascent needs to be STRAIGHT UP....if there is a current, the line may be at a 30 or 40 degree angle or much worse.....you would also waste huge amounts of time traversing the horizontal component of the line......If you teach divers to go up and down without a line, and they do this with a high degree of comfort, there is NOTHING TO TEACH when it comes to going up or down a line if they ever find a situation where they need to do this.

What we are seeing, is that those that have all their time going up and down lines, are often afraid to attempt to go up away from the ascent line...that is a big problem!!!!

But seriously... He ended up in a OOG situation because he did not plan his gas and his ascent ahead of time. His OOG was because he would not leave the guide because he did not feel competent to do a blue ascent.

What he NEEDS to do is check his gauges. TURN the dive when he reaches turnpressure, manage his gas, navigate (Even if just an easy reciprocal compass course) pay attention to his buddy, learn to pop an smb and ascend in a nice relaxed fashion. Either because he turned the dive for the whole group, and got his DM to follow, OR because he payed attention and could navigate back with his buddy when he reached turnpressure, OR because he could pop an smb and ascend slowly and safely WITHOUT going LOG, or OOG.

This is a basic skills problem. He needs to know how to do a proper ascent WITH his safetystop, and still know he planned the dive and did the dive in such a way that he ends up ON the boat, with the planned amout of gas left.

 

[danvolker]

But seriously... He ended up in a OOG situation because he did not plan his gas and his ascent ahead of time. His OOG was because he would not leave the guide because he did not feel competent to do a blue ascent.

What he NEEDS to do is check his gauges. TURN the dive when he reaches turnpressure, manage his gas, navigate (Even if just an easy reciprocal compass course) pay attention to his buddy, learn to pop an smb and ascend in a nice relaxed fashion. Either because he turned the dive for the whole group, and got his DM to follow, OR because he payed attention and could navigate back with his buddy when he reached turnpressure, OR because he could pop an smb and ascend slowly and safely WITHOUT going LOG, or OOG.

This is a basic skills problem. He needs to know how to do a proper ascent WITH his safetystop, and still know he planned the dive and did the dive in such a way that he ends up ON the boat, with the planned amout of gas left.

I agree with you that he needed to check his gauges, and be competent to know when to TURN the dive....
However, once he realized he was low on air, he and the wife should have decided to go straight to the surface at a 30 foot per minute ascent, with no stops, and if they air pressure was getting close to 300, the speed of surfacing could be BC assisted at maximum speed without kicking--just exhaling and breathing as needed.

As they were on the verge of running OOA, the significance of the stop was zero.
I don't know why so many new divers that are low on gas, think they need to do a stop, and then risk actually running OOA and drowning...I think this is a very poor decision making failure, and it should have been covered in their training classes.

Also....this is a No-Deco....or a No-Stop dive...that is what a recreational dive is. Not running out of air is job one.

The whole idea of "turning the dive" in this sense, is silly....this was not a cave dive...there is no virtual overhead.
The moment he realized he screwed up, and was dangerously low on air, the only choice for he and his wife was an immediate direct ascent --straight up. The DM from the story, sounded to be incompetent in managing this couple, but more than likely the DM was only a guide, and had no idea this couple was expecting her to be holding their hands throughout the dive.

Show me a diver afraid to do what you guys are calling a "blue water ascent", a direct ascent without a line--and I will show you a diver that has been improperly trained. To me, this is worse than the silting the bottom nonsense, or the need to be standing on the bottom in order to clear your mask.......These are supposed to be OPEN WATER DIVERS...key in this is that they can ALWAYS do a Direct Ascent to the surface....that is a straight up ascent.

 

[flots am]

The whole idea of "turning the dive" in this sense, is silly....this was not a cave dive...there is no virtual overhead.
The moment he realized he screwed up, and was dangerously low on air, the only choice for he and his wife was an immediate direct ascent --straight up. The DM from the story, sounded to be incompetent in managing this couple, but more than likely the DM was only a guide, and had no idea this couple was expecting her to be holding their hands throughout the dive.

The location of the boat isn't always obvious to the divers and it's disconcerting to surface in an unknown location.

On a drift dive, a 2 minute ascent could easily put the boat very far ahead of you while they follow the rest of the group. It's very easy to get left behind.

On a moored reef/wreck dive the DM will often take the tourists though all sorts of passages and turns so that the diver actually has no idea where they are at any given point. Generally it's not far from the boat, but it still makes people think twice before simply surfacing.

OTOH, part of the problem is "what happens when you run out of air underwater" (you die) is typically glossed over in SCUBA training because it's "scary", so divers stay down longer than is prudent before finally being forced to ascend. If there was more awareness of "I have 4 minutes left before I die. Permanently. Forever. ", I think divers would be more inclined to surface and less inclined to follow the DM.