How often do most shops in your area require Nitrox tanks to be O2 cleaned?

[In10se]

The following is a quote from a paper titled "Inspection of Scuba Gear by Ultraviolet Light" by Dr. Dick Boyd and Greg Kent.......



You can argue with these guys, it just makes your argument look silly.

Phil Ellis

My request to you as a fellow sb member is to stop the "silly" style of insulting commentary. It's just not really why we are all here.

You began this with equating K-valve's methods with fortune telling and things went from bad to worse. He responded to you in the typical swat flies with a cannon mindset we all use. From there various people get their attitudes fired up and this thread, one that a new diver like myself can benefit greatly from, went to $h!7.

In the interests of peace and the common good of the sb community please stop the insulting commentary.

Discuss this in a way that does not single out or insult others.

Thanks

A re-phrasing of your post so as not to be antagonistic:

The following is a quote from a paper titled "Inspection of Scuba Gear by Ultraviolet Light" by Dr. Dick Boyd and Greg Kent.......

APPLICATIONS OF UV-A LIGHT INSPECTIONS: Unfortunately, UV-light is NOT infallible as applied for hydrocarbon detection. Many modern chemical products DO NOT fluoresce and therefore cannot be sensed by UV A-light methods. Two diving-related examples of non-fluorescing materials are synthetic compressor oils and most silicone grease compounds. Among diving technicians, these chemicals are recognized as the most likely contaminants to pervade scuba oresce. Consequently, GMC does not recommend UV-inspection of dive tanks after oxygen-cleaning. If the presence of the most common pollutants cannot be confirmed by UV-A, the purchase and use of a tank VIP Blacklight costing many hundred of dollars makes no sense! Many military and research organizations agree with this point, and no longer mandated Blacklight inspections for all types of oxygen equipment.

If there is a valid and useful rebuttal to this data please post it.

Phil Ellis

 

[PhilEllis]

My request to you as a fellow sb member is to stop the "silly" style of insulting commentary. It's just not really why we are all here.

You began this with equating K-valve's methods with fortune telling and things went from bad to worse. He responded to you in the typical swat flies with a cannon mindset we all use. From there various people get their attitudes fired up and this thread, one that a new diver like myself can benefit greatly from, went to $h!7.

In the interests of peace and the common good of the sb community please stop the insulting commentary.

Discuss this in a way that does not single out or insult others.

Thanks

A re-phrasing of your post so as not to be antagonistic:

Listen, go back and read some of my roughly 1400 posts. You will not find a single one where I was insulting. You may find several where I correct information given incorrectly. Then go back and read that tiraid from valve. It is not only abrasive in tone, but it is insulting. Worst of all........it doesn't contain any valid and factual information. He didn't voice it as his opinion....he quoted his vast experience as proof that what he said was correct. Unfortunately, it was everything but correct. He then went on to insult someone else who posted, claiming them must also be from Alabama. How silly.

The methods he promotes......to convince others that there is no need to clean cylinders as long as a black light inspection come up good....is not only not supported by any factual evidence, it is dispelled by most of the authorities who know and understand cylinders and oxygen service. When one makes that type of argument, without the presentation of some type of new data or new wisdom, they do, in fact, look silly.

Valve was not swatting flies. He was promoting, as fact, a practice that is not suggested in any circles inside or outside this industry. I asked him a simple question.....what wisdom allowed him to make those conclusions. He could have quoted his learning on the subject. Instead, he launched a diatribe, full of multiple name calling, insults of skill, and unfair implications about the skill of someone he doesn't even know! Someone, by the way, pretty familiar to most of the SB community.

Had he left this alone after his multi-paragraph insult treatise, this thread would have died. He didn't. It went further to make sure that everyone knew he gave me a "piece of his mind". Press the report button on any post I have made if you think it doesn't belong in this community. While you are at it, press it for valves insulting post. The MODS will do whatever they think is correct.

Phil Ellis

 

[In10se]

The request for peaceful dialog has been made. Please honor that. This isn't a place for a pissing match. I would think that as grown-ups we can handle this without calling in the mods. It as easy as just stopping the insulting commentary. There's just no need for it at all.

 

[k-valve]

The request for peaceful dialog has been made. Please honor that. This isn't a place for a pissing match. I would think that as grown-ups we can handle this without calling in the mods. It as easy as just stopping the insulting commentary. There's just no need for it at all.

The problem, Larry, is that the request was made to a couple of people who make insulting posts to folks, then turn right around and claim they never do. When they don't agree with what you say they want you to do their research for them. When you tell them nicely to do their own work they get bent out of shape because they're too lazy to do it themselves. You try to explain it again and they take the comments they don't like out of context or just make an insult. They argue only a piece of the question rather than consider the whole picture. Instead of simply commenting on why they don't agree they don't have the manners to do so without using insulting and inflammatory language. Then they wonder why they got folks ticked off.

The fact is the guidelines they use are based in making money. It's a shotgun approach. It's safe, no doubt, but also unnecessary some of the time. They know it and I would bet they make exceptions for their buddies. They always pull the safety card, but that's BS too...and darn cliche in the SCUBA world. Don't dive below 130'! Only put your stage tanks on the left!! Don't overfill low pressure tanks! Aluminum vs. Steel...TDI vs IANTD vs GUE...jokers like these guys will even make fun of you because of the colors of your gear.

We're at cross purposes. They want our money or want us to conform to their way of thinking. We want to keep our money and dive the way we believe is right for us. The good news is that here we don't have to deal with shops with that kind of a narrow-minded approach and we don't have to put up with people like that. We have options. They're big talkers in the forums, but I imagine they don't have the backbone to talk to one of us in person the way they do on the Board.

...and let 'em run off tattling like a couple of school girls and cry to the Mods. I wouldn't expect anything else from them. They think 'cause they've been around awhile they have special powers and privileges. They don't.

 

[Lake Travis Scuba]

IMHO this should have been taken off-line (corporate buzzword of the day) and debated through PM, but that is neither here nor there at this point. I learn from the debates about topics I am unfamiliar with and this is a good avenue for sharing opinions. It is up to each of us to take the information presented and deal with it in our own way. If this debate did nothing more than make people think, do some research, and draw their own conclusions than something good comes of it. If it causes people to take sides, then it is no better than discussing McCain vs. Obama. No win situation for either side.

I have learned more operating Lake Travis Scuba than I ever did working in the shops. Talking about diving practices and actually diving are two different things. The range of knowledge, skills and experience I have seen has opened my eyes to much more than just standing in a shop talking about diving.

 

[scubashawn123]

So is there a Nitrox fill station in Austin Area that keeps 32, 34 or 36 mix in a blended tank? so that I don't need all that cost to O2 clean my tanks constantly. The cost is what gets to me. Dive shops locally claim they are filling with 100% O2 and thus I need to keep these mixed gas tanks O2 cleaned anytime I put anybody elses clean air into it. Hog wash, do as others around the country and blend a holding tank of standard high pressure Nitrox gas so that I don't worry about all this fuss. No O2 cleaning required.


Great idea. Anyone in Austin providing this?





Shawn O'Shea

 

[redacted]

It all comes down to the investment of money and space. Both of which are at a premium in any small business. Especially when PP blending, when done properly, has a pretty good track record.

How much money and space are we talking about that is not worth offsetting the risks the shop is taking doing PP blending? With some smart shopping, I'd think under $1000 for the initial setup and maybe 10 sq ft of floor space (on a wall). Would the loss of income from O2 cleaning be compensated for by the increased sales of EAN? Would the increased sales of EAN also be bringing more customers into the shop? I saw some bank tanks for sale on TDS for $150 each so I suspect that my $1000 estimate is not far off. So that makes me think that the perceived risks associated with PP blending must be quite small.

 

[k-valve]

...dbl post deleted...sorry

 

[k-valve]

How much money and space are we talking about that is not worth offsetting the risks the shop is taking doing PP blending? With some smart shopping, I'd think under $1000 for the initial setup and maybe 10 sq ft of floor space (on a wall). Would the loss of income from O2 cleaning be compensated for by the increased sales of EAN? Would the increased sales of EAN also be bringing more customers into the shop? I saw some bank tanks for sale on TDS for $150 each so I suspect that my $1000 estimate is not far off. So that makes me think that the perceived risks associated with PP blending must be quite small.

I bet Mack Diver or divewookie can give us a little insight into this.

So is there a Nitrox fill station in Austin Area that keeps 32, 34 or 36 mix in a blended tank? so that I don't need all that cost to O2 clean my tanks constantly. The cost is what gets to me. Dive shops locally claim they are filling with 100% O2 and thus I need to keep these mixed gas tanks O2 cleaned anytime I put anybody elses clean air into it. Hog wash, do as others around the country and blend a holding tank of standard high pressure Nitrox gas so that I don't worry about all this fuss. No O2 cleaning required.

Great idea. Anyone in Austin providing this?

I don't use a lot of recreational mixes, but I seem to remember someone telling me that Tom's provided banked EAN32. Give 'em a call and let us know what you find out (512) 451-3425.

IMHO this should have been taken off-line (corporate buzzword of the day) and debated through PM, but that is neither here nor there at this point. I learn from the debates about topics I am unfamiliar with and this is a good avenue for sharing opinions. It is up to each of us to take the information presented and deal with it in our own way. If this debate did nothing more than make people think, do some research, and draw their own conclusions than something good comes of it. If it causes people to take sides, then it is no better than discussing McCain vs. Obama. No win situation for either side.

I have learned more operating Lake Travis Scuba than I ever did working in the shops. Talking about diving practices and actually diving are two different things. The range of knowledge, skills and experience I have seen has opened my eyes to much more than just standing in a shop talking about diving.

Amen!!!!!!!!!

 

[danktex]

How much money and space are we talking about that is not worth offsetting the risks the shop is taking doing PP blending? With some smart shopping, I'd think under $1000 for the initial setup and maybe 10 sq ft of floor space (on a wall). Would the loss of income from O2 cleaning be compensated for by the increased sales of EAN? Would the increased sales of EAN also be bringing more customers into the shop? I saw some bank tanks for sale on TDS for $150 each so I suspect that my $1000 estimate is not far off. So that makes me think that the perceived risks associated with PP blending must be quite small.

That is my point exactly. The risk of PP blending is not that high in a controlled environment. Therefore not warranting the extra space or cost in a small shop that probably does not sell much Nitrox to begin with but maybe has it as a courtesy to the few customers that want it. It is a matter of priorities. They would rather sell mask, fins, snorkels and classes. They have other things but because they do not sell high volumes of it you pay more. The extra expense in this case is that rather then them investing in more equipment and space they expect you to spend the money to keep your tanks up to their standard. There is nothing malicious involved just business.
If this was cave country that we were talking about a shop could make money off of gas and therefore it is worth the investment in equipment. I think if you were to ask most shop owners around here they would tell you that they do not make much money if any on air and sell little Nitrox. They are a few of us like my self and K-valve who are out diving locally on a regular basis but sadly we are a minority compared to the local scuba population as a whole.
I am curious though if any one that has experience banking Nitrox knows if it is possible to bank Nitrox cost effectively with out a booster. If not then the cost of the booster would be another reason most would not choose to bank.