How much would you pay for a class?

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How much would you pay an instructor for a cave class, and what would you expect to have included in that fee?

I used to have a certain well-known Japanese photographic/optical company as a client and the main reason we won their US advertising business, according to them, was that during the pitch the head guy from Japan intererupted me in the middle of my presentation and asked me directly what kind of camera I owned. I told him the truth:

He: "RJP-san, you speak as if you know our products well. What kind of camera do you own?"
Me: "I've never owned anything but Nikon cameras." (True)
He: "But do you know why?"
Me: "Because I've never been unhappy paying too-much for the best." (True)
He: Standing and speaking to his team in Japanese, later translated for me as essentially: "RJP-san has spoken well. It seems as if he understands our products..." pausing as he looked at each of his people directly "...better than many of you." At which point he politely excused himself from the room.

:cool2:

The marketing guy - and the diver - in me would seek to pay as much as possible for a cave class that was worth it.

Am I representative of the entire target audience? Of course not. But any discussion of pricing for something like cave training should be geared towards determining how to increase the value of the offering to the point that you can command the highest possible price, rather than determining how to charge the lowest possible price.
 
One day, when I am rich...:rolf3:...I want to take GUE classes, or whoever is the best when I have the money. Until then, I take what I can afford. Ah, dreams.
 
One day, when I am rich...:rolf3:...I want to take GUE classes, or whoever is the best when I have the money. Until then, I take what I can afford. Ah, dreams.

From a marketing standpoint, the important point is that even if you can't or won't actually pay for "the best" class - whether now or ever - you still ASPIRE to do so. That's money in the bank, because it ensures the ability to charge everyone a higher price.

Gotta love it...

:cool2:
 
I think most cave instructors are charging bargain prices for classes.

Every cave instructor has put a lot of personal expense into gaining experience as a diver in open water and in overhead environments. When you think of the cost of charter boats, air and mixed gas fills, dive vacations, gasoline or diesel for cars and trucks, the cost of becoming an instructor, the personal sacrifices in a low-paying field, sporadic work, and the risks and lessons learned over 10, 20, 30 or more years of diving, it is a wonder that anyone would want to be an instructor at all.

Fortunately, many who have a passion for diving are willing to step up to the plate and incur further risk and responsibility by being diving educators in one of the world's most unforgiving, yet beautiful environments. You almost cannot put a price tag on the opportunity to be able to swim through the decorative features found in many cave systems. Added to which, the cave community is unlike any other in the diving world. The respect, friendships, and social scene that even the newest cave diver is exposed to is unparalleled. How many open water students can sit down for a beer near a local dive hot spot and be surrounded by the famous, the talented, the experienced as found in cave diving? During the apprentice class I just taught, the student was surrounded by some of the world's best cave divers and instructors while having a beer at the Great Outdoors restaurant in High Springs. What he learned through osmosis during conversations was invaluable.

Since students are paying for a cave instructor's time, what a student brings to cave class will also help determine the value of the class. I expected us to be able to get through Apprentice and Full Cave during 10 days in FL. However, the student did not have adequate trim and propulsion skills. His buoyancy was excellent. I had to spend 3 days working on just trim, propulsion and basic task-loading skills. The student lost 3 days of cave training right there. Next, awareness became a huge problem. It took us a couple of dives to sort out being aware that our team members were even in the cave and not peeking in from the entrance or hanging out on the ceiling with the light covered. After that, there were issues with being aware of light signals such as EMERGENCY! being flashed while task-loaded. Once we had team, trim, and propulsion squared away, we finally were able to concentrate on proper breathing, movement in high and low flow, using the cave environment to our advantage, moving away from a pull and glide in high flow to a "no touch" style of diving, and then working on complex navigation. However, as an Intro to Cave diver, the student should have had the basics more squared away. The more remedial work a cave instructor has to do, the less time there is for the wealth of information that your cave instructor's brain contains for the level of certification you are seeking.

For example, experience has placed me in restrictions in back gas that I had never imagined during training. Having been there and done that, I use a restriction in FL for a no lights gas sharing exit that is actually safely managed from either side by the instructor, but for the students it is a nightmare to negotiate since they have to fit through just the right way. Experiencing such a restriction in training will reduce the stress of such a restriction in the reel world.

Some cave instructors are experienced in one cave environment, while others have experience in a myriad of environments. For example, in addition to her experience exploring typical FL, Mexican, and Caribbean systems, Jill Heinerth has experience cave diving in an iceberg. I think only Paul Heinerth and Wes Skiles have that experience. One criticism for instructors who don't live in cave country is that they don't know the caves as well, but that can be countered with the argument that just because instructors know the caves better than others doesn't mean they use them to full advantage. Cave instructors from all over the world bring a lot of travel and homegrown cave diving to the class.

Some cave instructors go to work and try to make their days easy and routine by teaching a decent program. Others work really hard to maximize learning at every moment. However, there are very few cave instructors who are poor, if any are really that "poor" in comparison to open water and tech standards. Students will usually get a professional who is well above the rest of dive educators.

Different agencies have different standards. As a PSAI instructor, PSAI requires 12 dives at the full cave level if you are doing a zero to hero cave course, but only 8 dives at the full cave level if you are coming from apprentice. Four extra dives could add two full days of training. Cave agencies also back an instructor's personal standards over the minimum standards of training. Some instructors tend to do more dives in each class and charge more for them.

When you think about the fact that a cave instructor is willing to teach 1/2 a mile under a submerged rock ceiling for less money than most personal fitness trainers and golf pros charge per hour, the current range of rates from high to low are generous! :D
 
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Trace, as often is the case, you've presented a very interesting perspective.

RJP -- buying "the best" in such training is probably a fool's errand, especially if you are equating "best" with "most expensive." At least my very limited experience indicates that technical training is very teacher/student related and what is the "best" for thee may well be amongst the worst for me and vice-versa.
 
I just got back from Mexico where I took (and passed) C2 w/ Chris Le Maillot at ZG. ZG just raised the price as of 1/1/10 to $2500. Me and my team locked in before so we had the $2200 price.

To get to the point - you get what you pay for. I may be biased since I passed and have that :D feeling. However, Chris gave it 110% during the course of the week full of 15 hour days! He was there at 7:30 every morning and left after us - usually past 9 or 10 PM. Also, the folks at ZG have the logistics down with the fills, tanks, etc. They take your gear & tanks to/from the fill station and dive sites. We each had minor problems with our equipment during the week and he was there to fix it. That's worth money to me!

I left C2 with an enhanced feeling of confidence in a cave (and in general diving). I felt that unless I got every drill, procedure, etc. down to his standards, he wouldn't let me off of the hook. He doesn't just tell you what to do if the sh** hits the fan - he wants to make darn sure that you can do it under pressure and duress. THAT's what I paid for - the confidence of knowing that if I passed, I met or exceeded fairly high and consistent standards.
 
I have so far gone through Apprentice with NSS/CDS, and the price has been a bargain. It is hard to say exactly how much the instruction cost (I'll explain), but it is in the range of the cheaper ones mentioned so far. In my case, though, what I paid included my lodging, and I am not sure how to separate the two. Because I had to fly in, I could not bring any tanks. My instructor included tanks (including O2) and fills in the price.

I greatly appreciate it. I am semi-retired and by no means wealthy. I don't think I could even consider the more expensive ones mentioned. Like Lynne, I would have to wonder what I was getting to make that extra cost worth it to me. I think my instructor is doing a fine job, and I don't see any reason to pay twice that for whatever benefit I might be getting.
 
(prices in AUD, 1AUD=0.92USD)

The most I have paid so far is $750 for Deep Cavern and that included:
-Three nights of theory
-One full day in a pool
-Three days diving at a location about 6 hours away
-membership to CDAA
-training materials

The rest of the costs were: hire of a can light $30, accommodation for three nights $90, fills ~$60. Brought my own gear other than the light so no cost there.

I thought it was a great deal! Cave is going to be cheaper again (I heard $450), which I was surprised at as it is about the same length of time (but minus a pool day I think). I doesn't include CDAA membership as I already have that, but it is still cheap imho.
 
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Trace, as often is the case, you've presented a very interesting perspective.

RJP -- buying "the best" in such training is probably a fool's errand, especially if you are equating "best" with "most expensive." At least my very limited experience indicates that technical training is very teacher/student related and what is the "best" for thee may well be amongst the worst for me and vice-versa.

Peter, you're reading me wrong. I'm saying "find the best...and pay a lot for it" not "find the most expensive...and assume it's the best."

For instance, I'd tell people to pay more for your OW class than for the other instructors in the same shop.
 
Trace, I have no idea how to decide how much a cave instructor "ought" to make. The top people in any field tend to charge more for instruction, and sometimes that doesn't correlate with better actual TEACHING skills at all.

I have taken classes with a lot of different instructors, and the classes were of different qualities in MY opinion. One of the best was one of the most expensive, and one of the best was one of the least. One of the worst classes I've taken was the most expensive of all.

I just find a three-fold difference in pricing, for equivalent classes in the same neighborhood, to be very interesting, and wondered what people would be willing to pay. Word of mouth is that ZG is booked up a year in advance, so clearly the price isn't discouraging many people.
 
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